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Old 05-23-01   #1
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Pain Theory (i try to be original, but oh well)

Ah, because of emotions, coupled with immense empathy, a subject may be receptive to pain. The prodigy of such comatose-giving pain is "guilt" and "fear". The pain that the subject inflicts causes guilt and self-loathing, while the pain the subject receives causes fear, paranoia, and extreme low self-esteem.

Already, all signs of depression are rampant: guilt, self-loathing, fear, paranoia, low self-esteem... shortly after will come the reluctance to be integrated within society, the lack of motivation in all daily things, and the incessant wish for the Great Yonder.

And yet, all this without taking into consideration the subject's family life, or the context of its social acts before this "epiphany of empathy" occurred.

Is it possible, then, that the great majority of the adolescents today who lead idyllic, even a "nuclear family", life, but claim they are depressed and carry other hosts of mental illnesses due to the simple, and complex fact that they are emotionally underdeveloped, and excessively empathic?

(Besides the obvious choice, which is they're mindlessly conforming to anything they think will get them accepted, which could also be a side-effect to neglect)

God DAMN i wanna become a shrink so I can laugh in all the faces of those self-respecting quacks! People don't need no fucking drugs so they can become healthy... there are other ways, dammit!
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Old 05-23-01   #2
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i think a point to make though is that, in sociological terms, today's adolescence is no different then the adolescence from other past generations. the same amount of violence and depression has been present throughout our existence except more specific to that society and time period. rather then having violent hero's from TV and movies, kids grew up idolizing war hero's or knights and in the same token were depressed when they didn't fit in with the "rest of the world."

today we classify and characterize certain feelings of anger, depression, worthiness and place our kids in these subcategories, labeling them "this" or "that." isn't it just as much our fault for not teaching our kids how to properly deal with emotions rather then just calling them emotionally underdeveloped?

our society is evolving into this mass where we expect other people to raise our children and we're becoming more and more self centered as a whole. it's ridiculous that the parents of those columbine killers didn't have a fuckin' clue what their kids were about to do. there should have been an open dialog in those house's that allowed the kids to vent their frustration with the world and come to rational conclusions rather then thinking that the answer was killing other kids.
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Old 05-24-01   #3
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Excellent response, Arsinik..... I agree.
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Old 05-24-01   #4
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I can't help but point out that depression does not have to necessarily be manic, some of those who are depressed show no signs of depression whatsoever, they themselves have no idea of their ailment, they take it as just feeling of pubescent evolution, this can also lead to bipolarity though because unlike schitzophrenia, major depression, and the unspoken adhd, bipolarity is not a genetic mental illness, manic depression can actually be created in a child's mind. Per say, when and if a child is ever hospitilized in an institution for an evaluation of what have it, he may meet some like him, let us say a self-mutilater, and he then idolizes him and begins to hurt himself, indulgence in self-mutilation is expected in any sane person because just like drugs, sex, and violence, it is a stimulation, and the person has absolute control over the extremity of the stimulation, therfore the subject becomes "addicted" and as we all know any addiction, especially drugs and self-mutilation can lead to depression, when the depression comes, the subject will create it because, as all humans, and as previously discussed, he is obsessive over control.
drugs like prozac can also actually stimulate, yes stimulate, or activate a depression, if the child is starting to believe he is depressed and tells his psychiatrist he is depressed, usually without any investigation, the doctor is quick to provide him/her the medicine saying "it couldn't hurt". The child now fully believes he is depressed because he needs to be medicated, so he begins indulging in other depressive activities, such as under-eating, over-eating, drug abuse, isolation and other things, and then becomes "addicted" to those. He now harbors these things and is considered a very dangerous case of bipolar depression.
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Old 05-24-01   #5
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i would love to see a study were a group of people diagnosed with depression were fed sugar pills under the guise that they were the test for FDA approval for some company. i would love to see how many people felt "more control' over their feelings and anxiety just because they were told that in previous tests this "wonder pill" was known to help dramatically.
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Old 05-24-01   #6
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that's a good idea.
I personally figure i have enough occaisional mental problems that drugs of any sort, even the "beneficial" ones, will make it worse by messing with my mind.
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Old 05-26-01   #7
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[quote]Originally posted by ArSiNiK
i think a point to make though is that, in sociological terms, today's adolescence is no different then the adolescence from other past generations. the same amount of violence and depression has been present throughout our existence except more specific to that society and time period. rather then having violent hero's from TV and movies, kids grew up idolizing war hero's or knights and in the same token were depressed when they didn't fit in with the "rest of the world."[quote]

Of course. In simple terms, it's always been "the same shit, just a different pile."

Quote:
today we classify and characterize certain feelings of anger, depression, worthiness and place our kids in these subcategories, labeling them "this" or "that." isn't it just as much our fault for not teaching our kids how to properly deal with emotions rather then just calling them emotionally underdeveloped?
Most children aren't labelled "emotionally underdeveloped", is what I'm getting at. The labels are just thrown around, the drugs are just thrown around, money's thrown around at psychiatrists stroking their chins and jotting down notes, and people lose sight of what's really important (going back to your point), is that the problem is simple, and the kids have never been taught how to deal with themselves.

Quote:
our society is evolving into this mass where we expect other people to raise our children and we're becoming more and more self centered as a whole. it's ridiculous that the parents of those columbine killers didn't have a fuckin' clue what their kids were about to do. there should have been an open dialog in those house's that allowed the kids to vent their frustration with the world and come to rational conclusions rather then thinking that the answer was killing other kids.
The problem is it's a cycle. Parents today don't even know how to handle their own emotions, let alone their kids. How many people are getting more and more pregnant before their time. It's not just children, but people en masse, perhaps, that need to realize our society IS becoming self-centered, and desensitized, and uncommunicative. People don't want to be bothered with talking to their children about emotional responsibilities. There's the drugs, and the sex, and the booze, and the crime... emotions don't matter. Pain is a fact of life.

The whole point of my theory is: sure, pain is a fact of life. But it's how you deal with it that matters. Some people know how to deal with it naturally, while the majority have to be raised, and taught (like myself), or they have no fucking clue. Maybe there should be more focus on simple emotional growth and communication, then just throwing Paxil, Prozac, Effexor, Ritalin, and other shit around.
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Old 05-26-01   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sik Simon
I can't help but point out that depression does not have to necessarily be manic, some of those who are depressed show no signs of depression whatsoever, they themselves have no idea of their ailment, they take it as just feeling of pubescent evolution, this can also lead to bipolarity though because unlike schitzophrenia, major depression, and the unspoken adhd, bipolarity is not a genetic mental illness, manic depression can actually be created in a child's mind. Per say, when and if a child is ever hospitilized in an institution for an evaluation of what have it, he may meet some like him, let us say a self-mutilater, and he then idolizes him and begins to hurt himself, indulgence in self-mutilation is expected in any sane person because just like drugs, sex, and violence, it is a stimulation, and the person has absolute control over the extremity of the stimulation, therfore the subject becomes "addicted" and as we all know any addiction, especially drugs and self-mutilation can lead to depression, when the depression comes, the subject will create it because, as all humans, and as previously discussed, he is obsessive over control.
drugs like prozac can also actually stimulate, yes stimulate, or activate a depression, if the child is starting to believe he is depressed and tells his psychiatrist he is depressed, usually without any investigation, the doctor is quick to provide him/her the medicine saying "it couldn't hurt". The child now fully believes he is depressed because he needs to be medicated, so he begins indulging in other depressive activities, such as under-eating, over-eating, drug abuse, isolation and other things, and then becomes "addicted" to those. He now harbors these things and is considered a very dangerous case of bipolar depression.
This just reinforces my point. People are given these labels, and these drugs that might actually even degenerate a person's condition, when no one before has just sat down with a child and given simple values, beliefs, and ways to handle pain. A child who indulges in giving pain unto him/herself shows that they couldn't handle it when dished out to them emotionally/physically, and so they're giving it to themselves in controlled measures to show that they do indeed have control. Someone could have just sat down and asked them: "Why do you feel as if you need to control your pain?" And perhaps shown them that emotional pain, though large, and even fatal, can still be learned from and grown from.

Also, about people who "don't know their ailment", hey, it can just be that it is part of "pubescent evolution" except that some adolescents learn to handle it, while other adolescents quickly spin out of control. Then "an ailment" takes root because a pattern takes place, where a subject is stuck in a rut since they don't know the key element that will teach them to get out of it.
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Old 05-26-01   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArSiNiK
i would love to see a study were a group of people diagnosed with depression were fed sugar pills under the guise that they were the test for FDA approval for some company. i would love to see how many people felt "more control' over their feelings and anxiety just because they were told that in previous tests this "wonder pill" was known to help dramatically.
Quote:
Originally posted by Shadow_Born
that's a good idea.
I personally figure i have enough occaisional mental problems that drugs of any sort, even the "beneficial" ones, will make it worse by messing with my mind.
Yes... *does mr burns finger thing-y*... i too would like to see a study like that... hmmm... *strokes chin*...

And i agree with you, SB... some drugs aren't just meant to be taken for some people...
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Old 04-11-02   #10
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No drugs have worked for me and no one thus far has even sugested a method to deal with any past pain, just empathy (that I`m grateful for) or methos to tackle one of the sources of pain which I`m begining to believe can not be overcome without learning to deal with current situations.

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkProfanity
This just reinforces my point. People are given these labels, and these drugs that might actually even degenerate a person's condition, when no one before has just sat down with a child and given simple values, beliefs, and ways to handle pain.
Professionals in psychiatry that I`ve seen tend to work inside tried and tested methods and try to learn as much as they can about your current situation, anything brought up that is truely painful doesnt always help and is usualy suppressed limiting the effectiveness of the sessions.
Parents learn mostly from how they were rasied themselves what to and not to do but its a method made for what the parent wanted from their mother or father, its not universaly effective. The liberalising of people makes them less likely to teach their beliefs to their children (directly at least) as most would see that as forcing ideas onto them, as if their childrens individuality would be compromised by "brainwashing" As if kids dont have a take it or leave it attitute with rules and anything else they come across.
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Old 04-11-02   #11
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Hmm. I've read a couple of self-help books on cutting but they only make me starve for the sight of blood more...

But as for depression, I'd love to raise a child with no religion, no pre-concieved ideas and see what choices they make. I find (my school has a resident psychologist) that shrinks do set great value on the past, on childhood, but for me that's something so alienated it's like reading a book about a character whom I have nothing in common with. Like a story I can enter into or set down at will.

I think drugs do help, but it's sad that people need them to function. My last... paramour, shall we say... she has to take Zoloft all the time or else she spazzes out about random shit. Like, one time we were walking back from Calc and she started speaking softer and softer (which means she's upset). Turns out that the sound of the leaves crunching was making her violent, and the fact that someone was walking behind her and she couldn't see them. Weird shit.

And her shrink refuses to diagnose her as bipolar because she hasn't "done anything too drastic," like try to kill herself or max out a credit card, etc. Makes you wanna do something stupid just to get the label, huh?

I hate looking through books describing mental disorders... I'ts like looking at a checklist of my main character traits, heh.
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Old 04-12-02   #12
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I do have a theory that relates the widespread psychologically disordered youth with today's easier lives... if one has no contrast with their current life (they've never known true sorrow, so can appreciate how much better life is now), that leads to depressed feelings. Masochism is due to a need to FEEL for once, as opposed to the dreary life lived to date. Bipolar disorder is likewise a reaction to this emptiness of emotion, and is an unnatural "emotion" inducer (if you call the moods emotions... I tend not to). It's horrible to live the double (or even triple; the in between moods mood) life, where you can never know but a fraction of yourself; the part of you who can relate to that particular mood.

And shrinks are so horribly oblivious, it's amusing at times... you can trick them into thinking you are happy by merely smiling and pretending to agree with them (which is how I got out of the weekly meetings, btw).
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Old 04-12-02   #13
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Masochism and self abuse are two different things.
Its not suprising some people are losing out on emotions, a lot of what people feel is made into humor directed back at them or is felt to be so unwanted it is suppresed.
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Old 04-12-02   #14
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"Masochism and self abuse are two different things."

Not always. But yes, I did leave myself ill-defined, I should have said masochism and self-abuse.

"Its not suprising some people are losing out on emotions, a lot of what people feel is made into humor directed back at them or is felt to be so unwanted it is suppresed."

True... but what I was trying to state is the events in one's life... oh fuck it, I'll come out.

Personally, this is my life... dull, boring as hell... no reason for sorrow, and if there's any reason for joy, I can't see it. No big catastrophes, no big events of any sort in my life, blah, etc., bitch and moan. When I feel sad, depressed, some such, etc., I suppress it merely because I know I have no right, no reason to feel as such. That makes it worse. Nonetheless, I continue.
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Old 04-12-02   #15
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Might be wrong on this but its how I see it:
Self abuse would be to feel something, anything or to release emotional pain locked inside through physical means.The pain being the aim and method.
Masochism is the method of using physical pain for sexual pleasure.The pleasure being the aim and pain being the method.

My lifes dull as well as can be seen from my post count:BThe closest thing to emotions I currently have are those kinds of moods you talked about.
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Old 04-12-02   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedMeat
Might be wrong on this but its how I see it:
Self abuse would be to feel something, anything or to release emotional pain locked inside through physical means.The pain being the aim and method.
Masochism is the method of using physical pain for sexual pleasure.The pleasure being the aim and pain being the method.

My lifes dull as well as can be seen from my post count:BThe closest thing to emotions I currently have are those kinds of moods you talked about.
That seems to work... but it may be possible that pain as a means of obtaining pleasure could be a response to the dullness of daily living... (that's how my mild case developed I believe; it came with my first major case of depression).

However, self-abuse is a more conscious process than masochism.
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Old 04-12-02   #17
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Yes, with self-abuse the pain and the sight of blood are the final goals. I don't completely understand masochism, but I've always seen it as actually pleasurable, often sexual pleasure; is that right? I know that a little pain mixed with a lot of pleasure works well, but I don't think I know anyone who is aroused by pain alone.
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Old 04-13-02   #18
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The way I view masochism, is it doesn't necessarily mean pain, then arousal (although that is entirely plausible); but that any sexual situation with pain involved is more pleasurable in general. Even the thought of pain in involved sexual fantasies increases their worth.
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Old 04-13-02   #19
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My first case looking back was in my childhood.I had a strong desire to harm other people that I kept locked away inside my self surrounded by guilt.
You are right SirVLCIV but thats only part of an explanation, masochism has also been a strong part of peoples emotional fantasies...
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Old 04-13-02   #20
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Your first case was a case of sadism...

Yes, masochism has a strong foundation in emotion... I kid when I state I am emotionally masochistic (but it may not be entirely jest)... I yearn for that which is unattainable (or make what I can have unattainable, so I can yearn for it).
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