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Old 07-07-14   #1
Dark Messiah
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Let's talk about politics

What're your politics like these days, Simon?
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Old 07-07-14   #2
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HILLARY CLINTON 2016. That is all.
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Old 07-07-14   #3
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It will be difficult to win though in a state where someone is walking around with 44 voter Id's
Duplicate voter registrations plague Florida’s election system

By Marianela Toledo * / * July 7, 2014* / * No Comments


By Marianela Toledo | Florida Watchdog

MIAMI — When it comes to voting, the rules are clear: One person, one address and one vote.

At least that’s how it’s suppose to work.

But Andrew Ladanowski, owner of the computer software company AddinSolutions Inc. , suspects Florida’s Division of Elections isn’t cross checking.


DUPLICATED?: More than 700 voter Id, included in Florida voters rolls, seems to have been duplicated, and investigation show.

To verify his suspicions, he did “a very quick analysis” of Miami-Dade’s voting system and turned up 44*voter IDs issued to the same person. Elections officials admit 42 of those 44 were in fact duplicates.

All in all, some*762 Florida voters have more than one county-issued voter ID card. Some are registered with the same address, and others are registered in different counties.

On its own, duplicate registrations do not constitute fraud. Lots of people move or change names, leaving old registrations on the rolls. But with no one checking, duplicate voting could become a problem.

“Testing this small sample, I informed the SOE (the*supervisor of elections) that a person voted twice in person in the November 2012 election,” Ladanowski said.

Elections officials say it was a clerical error.

Another voter cast*absentee ballots in Gainesville and Miami, he said.

“Was there someone bold enough to have an absentee ballot delivered to an alternate address they were already registered with an alternate voter ID?” Ladanowski*asked.

Florida Watchdog*contacted the state’s Division of*Election and Miami-Dade Department of Elections to ask what security measures were in place to prevent duplicate voting, but neither agency responded.

Separating clerical errors from cheats is no easy task.

“I have no way of verifying whether it was clerical error versus voter fraud,” Ladanowski said, though he did admit he didn’t find any hard evidence of intentional fraud.

What he found was “a lack of controls in place.”

“The state needs to have someone analyze the data more carefully, checking for maiden names and potential aliases, trying whenever possible to use the Social Security number generate the appropriate reports and have those voter registrations reviewed by appropriate staff,” Ladanowski*said.

“The process of confirming a duplication between two counties would require emailing and phoning each other to confirm the documentation. *This needs to be done.”

And then there’s the issue of convicted felons serving prison terms, deceased people and illegal immigrants on the voter lists.

“O.J. Simpson was registered as voter until last year. He was not removed (because) his felony occurred in Nevada,” Ladanowski said.

Gov. Rick Scott in 2012 tried to purge the voting rolls of convicted felons, dead people and non-citizens, but the effort was blocked in federal court because the purge of voter lists was happening too close to the election.

Ladanowski said he hopes*his work is a wakeup call and the state’s election officials*will look into the matter before the November*election.

“These are simple mistakes, which the software they are using should have automatically picked up, he said. “If these simple mistakes are slipping through, I fear what other mistakes are being made.”

“The state’s supervisor of elections software should not issue a voter ID until they run a check (to see) if information provided matches an existing individuals.* If it does, this should then trigger the local supervisor of elections to check the data more closely.”

Ladanowski said*there’s nothing stopping people from voting in multiple states because states do not share voter information.

“The supervisor of elections for each state should be sharing data with each other to ensure people are only voting once during an election.”

Watchdog.org reported last week that more than 6.9 million Americans are registered to vote in two or more states, but that included data from just 28 states and does not include*the three largest — California, Texas and Florida.

Contact Marianela Toledo at Marianela.Toledo@FloridaWatchdog.org or on Twitter @mtoledoreporter.*
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Old 07-07-14   #4
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So DM, since Facebook insists on showing me every single thing you like/comment on (probably because I generally tend to click on a lot of it), tell me what made you fall out with libertarianism and into whatever weird strain of communist/marxist/feminist/ whatever you are now.

I'm not trying to start shit, I try to be more objective these days than I was in the past. All that trolling and confrontation is exhausting. A lot of the shit brought to my facebook feed via yours is enlightening, but a lot of it is fairly extreme and ludicrous. I'm interested in where you're coming from.
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Old 07-12-14   #5
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Well god damn it DM I tried to talk about politics with you.
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Old 07-12-14   #6
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Maybe he's just taking an extremely long time to respond.
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Old 07-14-14   #7
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Sorry I just forget to check DF sometimes. It has a pretty slow load time.

It's also pretty late so I'm going to go over Simon's stuff later, also because I'm never sure when he's yanking me around or not.

I started falling out with libertarianism about the time you would expect; when the world economy collapsed in September of 2008

It helped that the Summer of 2008 I had taken Macroeconomics at Nova with a Robert Barr. Not the same as the Presidential Libertarian candidate of the same year, but also a libertarian/free market type, one of the infinite George Mason freshwater alums that define their econ department.

Anyway he was very vocally ideological teaching the class. One thing we did was watch most of an extensive PBS documentary called "The Commanding Heights" which was basically about how over the course of the 20th century, as they framed it, central planning economics (in which they conflated Keynesianism and Communism etc..) had been defeated and displaced by free market economics, which had forever solved the boom/bust cycle.

I want you to re-read the above and just understand that I'm not exaggerating at all; that's what their position was. I mean maybe they didn't really think forever but it was very much in the vein of an "end of history" idea, which made sense because up until that point policy was pretty well stuck in the Washington Consensus that emerged in the late 80s/early 90s, and both Dems and Republicans adored Alan Greenspan equally.

This is important because I think the notion that free market economics was some radical fringe before the crisis is a pretty key, load-bearing joint in the libertarian ideological structure and I just didn't have it. When the crisis hit it was hard for me to pretend that the free market types weren't doing victory laps up until that point, convinced that their policies were the ones dominating. I mean sure, they didn't have everything they wanted- social security wasn't privatized, etc..- but they were certain that other economic doctrines were on the retreat, broken, scattered.

I emailed my professor, Robert Barr, during the crisis, and he did some excellent mental gymnastics by the way explaining why the banks should be bailed out after all. So that was a thing.

Now, I did not immediately stop believing in libertarian things for another year, maybe a year and a half, gradually over time, but that was sort of the crux of the fall apart. I noticed of course that after the banking sector was healed all the same free market types were pretty angry about the idea of helping out the non-wealthy who had suffered, the way the banks had been helped.

I had the option of going further right, but didn't. One of the things I'm convinced of is that the difference between libertarians* and anarcho-capitalists isn't really policy but philosophy. They agree on all the same policies, it's just that libertarians think it will produce equitable shangrila and everyone dancing in gum drop lanes, and anarcho-capitalists know better, but think they're going to be on the winning team and that it's right to tromp "weaker" people under their heel. I've never actually met or talked to an anarcho-capitalist that wasn't basically a sociopathic, selfish prick.

Uh actually it's 5:30 am I'll explain how I transitioned to communism later. That took a while and was fairly recently actually.


*Although these days "libertarian" just seems to mean "republican who doesn't want to admit it," so.
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Old 07-14-14   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
Sorry I just forget to check DF sometimes. It has a pretty slow load time.

It's also pretty late so I'm going to go over Simon's stuff later, also because I'm never sure when he's yanking me around or not.

I started falling out with libertarianism about the time you would expect; when the world economy collapsed in September of 2008

It helped that the Summer of 2008 I had taken Macroeconomics at Nova with a Robert Barr. Not the same as the Presidential Libertarian candidate of the same year, but also a libertarian/free market type, one of the infinite George Mason freshwater alums that define their econ department.

Anyway he was very vocally ideological teaching the class. One thing we did was watch most of an extensive PBS documentary called "The Commanding Heights" which was basically about how over the course of the 20th century, as they framed it, central planning economics (in which they conflated Keynesianism and Communism etc..) had been defeated and displaced by free market economics, which had forever solved the boom/bust cycle.

I want you to re-read the above and just understand that I'm not exaggerating at all; that's what their position was. I mean maybe they didn't really think forever but it was very much in the vein of an "end of history" idea, which made sense because up until that point policy was pretty well stuck in the Washington Consensus that emerged in the late 80s/early 90s, and both Dems and Republicans adored Alan Greenspan equally.

This is important because I think the notion that free market economics was some radical fringe before the crisis is a pretty key, load-bearing joint in the libertarian ideological structure and I just didn't have it. When the crisis hit it was hard for me to pretend that the free market types weren't doing victory laps up until that point, convinced that their policies were the ones dominating. I mean sure, they didn't have everything they wanted- social security wasn't privatized, etc..- but they were certain that other economic doctrines were on the retreat, broken, scattered.

I emailed my professor, Robert Barr, during the crisis, and he did some excellent mental gymnastics by the way explaining why the banks should be bailed out after all. So that was a thing.

Now, I did not immediately stop believing in libertarian things for another year, maybe a year and a half, gradually over time, but that was sort of the crux of the fall apart. I noticed of course that after the banking sector was healed all the same free market types were pretty angry about the idea of helping out the non-wealthy who had suffered, the way the banks had been helped.

I had the option of going further right, but didn't. One of the things I'm convinced of is that the difference between libertarians* and anarcho-capitalists isn't really policy but philosophy. They agree on all the same policies, it's just that libertarians think it will produce equitable shangrila and everyone dancing in gum drop lanes, and anarcho-capitalists know better, but think they're going to be on the winning team and that it's right to tromp "weaker" people under their heel. I've never actually met or talked to an anarcho-capitalist that wasn't basically a sociopathic, selfish prick.

Uh actually it's 5:30 am I'll explain how I transitioned to communism later. That took a while and was fairly recently actually.


*Although these days "libertarian" just seems to mean "republican who doesn't want to admit it," so.
Well I still call myself libertarian, though admittedly where I used to be pretty much all-in, I am now taking it on a case-by-case basis, and my mind is changing on some things. I still value personal freedom over pretty much any other ideal, yet I'm starting to realize that maybe having some nationalized healthcare wouldn't be all bad. It seems to be working in other places. I dunno, I guess it's good to have an open mind, but libertarian to communist in 5 years seems kind of extreme.
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Old 07-14-14   #9
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Yeah, I mean that's how I was for a while, trying to fix libertarianism in my mind piece-meal, before I ultimately gave up on it.

I think it's probably most accurate to imagine the greater political spectrum as encompassing four quadrants, more or less, at the moment; a y axis of state versus no state, and an x axis of capitalism versus socialism. These encompass both the status quo and the major forms of potential revolutionary change.

Here, let me draw a quick and shitty graph:



The anarchy section is blank because frankly I know less about anarchists. And of course this graph is simplified and incomplete, like it doesn't include fascism, monarchism, feudalism, theocracy, etc., and so by no means demonstrates the only potential revolutionary axis along which power could be radically redistributed. But this covers most people, even the limited sphere of radical revolutionaries, in the Western world.

I should talk a little bit about what is meant here by a few terms, mainly "socialism" and "liberalism," which in left politico circles have a different meaning than in the American vernacular.

Liberalism refers to basically that merger of state and capitalism really set up by Enlightenment-era thinkers like John Locke, Adam Smith, the founding fathers, etc., in which a separate state sets rules for but doesn't dictate actions, generally, to the private holders of capital, who manage all the investing, running businesses, etc.. The system that defines our status quo in the West and largely displaced Imperial Mercantilism.

The entire political mainstream is in this sense, "liberal," arguing over the precise balance of power between state and capital but without questioning the underlying arrangement. Whether taking the right-liberal view of the state as referee, or the left-liberal view of capital as the engine that pulls the state along and allows it to provide for the common good.

There is however a pull to the upper-left quadrant in the American right. There is a pull down in the left as well, but it is a difference of degree, not kind- there is no legitimate push towards real socialism in the mainstream American left, nor any reasonably sized fringe. There is a significant force in the American right for moving away from a recognition of state legitimacy, however, and towards some degree of libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism. This would represent a truly revolutionary change, shifting more power away from the state and towards capitalism.

I should clarify on socialism a little bit. Both anarchism and communism view themselves as transitory stages towards a socialist end goal, a theorized but vague future state in which bountiful resources are fully shared. In the short term however what is meant is some form of communal ownership of the means of production. A big point to get out of the way up front- this does not mean joint ownership of personal property. Where to draw the line is of course not objectively clear, but possessions being owned for personal use is not against the principles of all but a fringe of socialists. But, say, a coal mine- there is no point in any individual being able to say, "I own this coal mine," a socialist would say. The coal mine doesn't exist for the use of the individual but for the community; why then should anyone get to try and exploit the value of the mine in order to gain extra labor from others? Which is all that capital is, really; something that is owned not for personal use but in order to capture and exploit the surplus value that others produce.

Anyway, so my disillusionment with libertarianism was based on the revelation that capital is actually quite dangerous and naturally exploitative, but my initial moves were towards liberalism, maybe social-democratism, FDR-type liberalism, but not revolutionary. This was where I stayed for a number of years, believing that capital did and should exist only to be exploited by the state for in turn raising the standards of living of the masses. Also developing beliefs about social justice kinda stuff that contradicted some of my earlier beliefs. It's not entirely tangential since I think studying social power dynamics more carefully tends to help eradicate the belief in such an idea as "free markets."

The big breakthrough over that axis came when I was studying the Hellenistic period for a class on Alexander the Great. It's long to get into but I came to the opinion more or less that pre-Alexandrian, classical Greek thought had profound errors in its premises that was responsible for its horrible racism and xenophobia, sexism (these things are not in much dispute academically btw,) and in particular I came to hate the idea of "rationality." What I mean by that is that, well, this idea of "rationality" doesn't really seem to mean anything. It's almost invariably just a cover for the strong (or those that think themselves strong, anyway) to ignore the concerns of the weak, of others. The idea of masculine rationalism vs. feminine emotionalism is basically just a load of horseshit going back really to this Aristotelian influence.

And I don't mean that normatively, I mean descriptively, the idea that any but the rarest of sociopaths is a self-interested, "rational" agent just doesn't hold up. People don't act in their own self-interests, usually. Not in numbers. Those that do tend to be those isolated on the margins.

So I mean once you set aside that notion, it's sort of this eye-opener. I mean the liberal idea of capitalism has its problems, but we'll iron them out sort of gives the free marketeers their premise. It assumes that meritocracy is even a real thing in some sense. Ironically though it's not selfishness that causes capitalism not to work, it's altruism, of a sort. The thing is that cronyism and nepotism are pretty much the default states of capitalism, not for nefarious reasons, but for the opposite- because people, given power, tend to want to help out their friends and family, not maximize profit.

Once you accept that as true the whole rationale behind capitalism states to unravel in my opinion. If people are primarily interested in helping each other, then the need of the state isn't to correct for self-interest but to widen the scope of group interest inclusively.
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Old 07-14-14   #10
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Ha, ok, I guess I deserve that for being so facetious, you never can tell when I'm being serious. Nice explanation though, I feel like I understand your position on politics a little better.
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Old 07-15-14   #11
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But seriously it's hard to see how Hillary would lose 2016.
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Old 07-15-14   #12
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Indeed, she is unstoppable. Who will you vote for though? Have you become complacent on the matter since there will be no socialist party having a chance to win the bid? Or will you vote conservative just in hopes of defeating the liberals? I'd like to think that someday there will be a candidate that embodies both liberal and conservative viewpoints, because I think both of these views are important for the steady progression of our country into the future. The power plays back and forth are what causes such instability in our progress.
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Old 07-24-14   #13
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TLDR

there's your response.
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Old 07-24-14   #14
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OK but seriously.

I understand your position, and I've seen the chart before, but what I don't understand is how you lost faith with libertarianism due to it not being practical outside of it's ideal world, but then you went to communism which has just as many if not more problems in actual applications.

We can admit that both forms of government would work as presented, however reality and human nature get in the way. I would argue that the end result, after reality and human nature have done their work, is much better under libertarian ideals than communist.

Also, though I am by no means a Democrat, I'm leaning towards Hillary in 2016 as well.
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Old 07-24-14   #15
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Quote:
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Also, though I am by no means a Democrat, I'm leaning towards Hillary in 2016 as well.
Shazam malafakas!!!!
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Old 07-26-14   #16
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I just made the chart not really sure how you'd seen it before.

I guess I breezed over this point a bit but one of my big points was that this "capitalism is necessary because human nature" argument is deeply flawed. A lot of my commie friends would say that the concept of a "human nature" at all is stupid and essentialist, which I don't think is completely true, although generally most arguments based around "human nature" mean, at best, "Western conditioning." But I don't think really either holds for the capitalist argument.

Human nature under this assumption is about people and their rational self-interest competing with each other. And it's just a flawed premise. Not only because people aren't rational but because people aren't primarily self-interested. People are primarily group-interested. People very very very routinely put some group- from the very small, like their family, to the very large, like humanity- ahead of themselves. Even cronyism and nepotism are rooted ultimately not in selfishness but in the natural desire for one to use one's power to aid friends and family.

Rational self-interest might suggest capitalism but that's not actually how humans behave.
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Old 12-14-14   #17
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If I can add something useful in my little spam fest that I opted to take this evening, it will be to this thread. I have begun to move away from feeling as though I know what idealism I ultimately am going for, and instead, what system of finding a good ideal in the first it is that I endorse.

Drinking wine so you can deal with run on sentences.

Anyway, this is a good starting point for myself. And you, unless you're wrong.

http://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
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Old 02-22-15   #18
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If Hillary Clinton becomes the president of the U.S. one day, I won't envy her job.
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Old 02-23-15   #19
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For a half second I thought Mike was going to say something controversial, I should have known better.
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Old 02-23-15   #20
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When you're president of the U.S., there is a lot of people in the world who literally want to kill you!

I don't want a job if it means that many people, both living in America as well as other parts of the world, would want to blow me away.
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