Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions
Home Register FAQ
Go Back   Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions > Discussions > Topic Discussions
Reload this Page There is no you
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-28-11   #1
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
There is no you

...and this can be recognized in real life.

Because humans interpret the world in terms of cause and effect, we assume there is a self "causing" actions and experiencing life. But this isn't true at all.

No thinker of thoughts, just thinking.

No seer of sight, just seeing.

No liver of life, just life.

Not YOUR body, there's no owner, just a body.

Just experience, no experiencer.


Sounds crazy, I know. Check it out though, attack it with open-minded skepticism. By that I mean; be open to the possibility that this is true, and be skeptical enough to look at reality (here and now), and find out if it is.

It's simple to see really, just look at the absence of a you in the same way that you'd look at the absence of an elephant in your room.


So, there is no you. Is it true? Look.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-11   #2
Sik Simon
Ate God
Overlord
 
Sik Simon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: The hood, US
Posts: 17,808
Sik Simon is on a distinguished road
Credits: 26,877
Sure its true, its like time, just an awareness we've created to help understand the universe. It's an illusion.
__________________
*Saunters by with a devil-may-care look in my eye.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-11   #3
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
Yes, it is an illusion.

There's a HUGE difference between believing this, and seeing it in real life.

Do you see this in real life, see how there isn't a you?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-11   #4
Sik Simon
Ate God
Overlord
 
Sik Simon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: The hood, US
Posts: 17,808
Sik Simon is on a distinguished road
Credits: 26,877
You just realizing this or something?
__________________
*Saunters by with a devil-may-care look in my eye.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-11   #5
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
I've been liberated for about two months now.

Again, do you recognize this pattern in real life, or do you just understand it as a philosophical concept?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-11   #6
Dark Messiah
Half-Wit Intellectual
Admin
 
Dark Messiah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Beautiful Sona-nyl
Posts: 14,853
Dark Messiah will become famous soon enough
Credits: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicquodiam View Post
...and this can be recognized in real life.
Hmm.

Quote:
Because humans interpret the world in terms of cause and effect, we assume there is a self "causing" actions and experiencing life. But this isn't true at all.
Wait, what?

Causality doesn't imply that the observer is the first cause. Quite the opposite.

Quote:
No thinker of thoughts, just thinking.
Then what is thinking and what is its agent?

Quote:
No seer of sight, just seeing.

No liver of life, just life.

Not YOUR body, there's no owner, just a body.
Why?

Why shouldn't it be your body?

Quote:
Just experience, no experiencer.
This seems a contradiction.

Quote:
Sounds crazy, I know. Check it out though, attack it with open-minded skepticism. By that I mean; be open to the possibility that this is true, and be skeptical enough to look at reality (here and now), and find out if it is.

It's simple to see really, just look at the absence of a you in the same way that you'd look at the absence of an elephant in your room.

So, there is no you. Is it true? Look.
I think not, and as I think I am. QED.

Of course you might be more productive questioning what one means by "I", but you abdicate that in your initial post.
__________________
Like any spelling mistake, mutations cannot give rise to information, but rather damage that which already exists.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #7
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post

Causality doesn't imply that the observer is the first cause. Quite the opposite.
There's no observer, DM. Just the process of observation.

See that? It stands alone, it doesn't have a self "doing" the observation.


Quote:
Then what is thinking and what is its agent?
Thinking is the brain sending out thoughts in reaction to experience.

Look at where thoughts come from though. Do you see a you choosing the thoughts?

Quote:
Why?

Why shouldn't it be your body?
The self?

Because it's not there. There's just a body, thoughts, feelings, experience. These don't belong to anyone.

There are thoughts about a self, and thoughts attributing behaviors to this self, but the self has no counterpart in reality.

Test that.


Quote:
This seems a contradiction.
It's not though, look. Look at the absence of a you experiencing life.



Quote:
I think not, and as I think I am. QED.
There isn't a you to think. Just thoughts.

See this assumption of a self? It's an assumption based on no evidence whatsoever, you've never had direct experience of a self. Look.


Quote:
Of course you might be more productive questioning what one means by "I", but you abdicate that in your initial post.
The "I" in "I think" isn't there. That's what I'm saying. Everyday, common usage of I.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #8
Sik Simon
Ate God
Overlord
 
Sik Simon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: The hood, US
Posts: 17,808
Sik Simon is on a distinguished road
Credits: 26,877
I dont understand what the hell your talking about philosophy and crap. I'm not a philosopher, I just realize that the mental concept of a 'me' is just a facade by brain has created, that all entities are just atoms and a collective entity that is the universe.
__________________
*Saunters by with a devil-may-care look in my eye.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #9
StepVheN
New Blood
 
StepVheN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
StepVheN has disabled reputation
Credits: 1,559
Sex

Had to get involved in this thread. Had been lurking but couldn't let this opportunity slide.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik Simon View Post
I dont understand what the hell your talking about philosophy and crap. I'm not a philosopher, I just realize that the mental concept of a 'me' is just a facade by brain has created, that all entities are just atoms and a collective entity that is the universe.
I realized the same thing not long ago. A friend introduced me to the idea and I thought it was just that, a cool idea. I could see how it would make sense that it was true.

He kept banging on about how I didn't "get it"... Annoying. A more profane version "I'm not a retard.. I get ideas.." was probably my comeback.

"If you get it tell me if it's true" He must have said that close to 30 times in the space of 5 minutes. Frustrating.

"I can see how it could be true" I'd say and I could.

We don't ever experience a self. When you take stock of the nature of life, there are thoughts and experiences but no self. It's kind of like a label we use to describe our faculties. (my use of ownership language probably doesn't help here but you all follow)

"Don't just see how it COULD be true see if it is"

That was the thing that hit me the hardest. When I'd be working on some essay for college or even making decisions in real life, I'd work in terms of gathering reasons for why a thing is plausible.

I'd never really consider trying to put things beyond a reasonable doubt. I've never believed in certainty, just from a philosophical point of view. You can't (or at the very least I could never) be certain that a cup I held in my hand is an actual cup and not the machinations of some kind of science fiction Matrix type setup. BUT, you can be pretty damn sure anywhere between 1% and 99%, more likely 95ish but never 100 per cent.

It never struck me to check these things that "could" be true out to see if I could be maybe 95% or 96% sure of them. As sure as I am that this laptop in front of me is real.

So I just checked out my experience of reality to see if in fact, this idea that there was no self, only thoughts about a self was accurate. Sure enough I found my answer and I'd get it at the same level of certainty that there is a computer screen before me right now. I can see the screen. I also can not see this "self thing" all the constituent parts like thoughts and whatever are there just no central core self.

To be honest I think the thought strikes a lot of people or they will at the very least come across it in their lives and like me at first, they'll think "I can see how that would be true" but never really feel the need to be certain of it. That's a shame of course, because a certain level of certainty on matters of this nature brings a new levels of clarity.

Last edited by StepVheN; 06-29-11 at 05:32. Reason: I can't spell guud
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #10
Lenina
Mad Kangaroo sex
Moderator
 
Lenina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: McFuck
Posts: 13,334
Lenina will become famous soon enough
Credits: 375,069
I find that most people that belittle their sense of self or make so they pretend that they do not have a sense of self are just being pathetic.

I am me, I am an individual with individual needs and individual personality. Some people are similar but none of them are me.

'I am.' That my motto because it has to be, I refuse to believe the bullshit some people spout to make themselves sound like they are 'falling down a dark abyss.' It makes you sound lame and emo and really, the people who whine like that have never REALLY lived.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


You'll never understand it
Try to buy and brand it
I win, you lose, cause it's my job
To keep punk rock elite
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #11
Lenina
Mad Kangaroo sex
Moderator
 
Lenina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: McFuck
Posts: 13,334
Lenina will become famous soon enough
Credits: 375,069
And never will live... Not really...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


You'll never understand it
Try to buy and brand it
I win, you lose, cause it's my job
To keep punk rock elite
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #12
StepVheN
New Blood
 
StepVheN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
StepVheN has disabled reputation
Credits: 1,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
I find that most people that belittle their sense of self or make so they pretend that they do not have a sense of self are just being pathetic.
I agree. So many people do that. And act as if "there is no me I can do whatever I want" which makes no sense. Worse they seem to have ZERO confidence in their own abilities, their intelligence or whatever. Just deluding themselves in most cases.
People like that make me

Quote:
I am me, I am an individual with individual needs and individual personality. Some people are similar but none of them are me.
Yeah. Exactly. Individual thoughts, and memories and experience and personality and opinion, all of it. People who deny that are insane.

All that's really being said here is that all those things to do exist and they are what's important.

You can see all of those things in real life. You just can't see the "you" that owns them. There is no owner for those things. Does that mean that the things are worth any less or are any less real? Of course not. It just means that our focus is off, we put focus on the "owner" of these things as being important when in fact, it is the things themselves that are important and the owner is just reflected by a function of thought that does not actually exist

Quote:
'I am.' That my motto because it has to be,
Why does it have to be? All the things that make up you are obviously real and true. The phrase "this is" covers it all perfectly and puts the focus on the actual properties like intelligence and personality rather than some fictional owner of them.

Quote:
I refuse to believe the bullshit some people spout to make themselves sound like they are 'falling down a dark abyss.'
Booom. You're dead right.

Quote:
It makes you sound lame and emo and really, the people who whine like that have never REALLY lived.
Take a look all those things are there all you're best and worst characteristics, there's just no owner behind them. No need to worry about that, there never has been. Take look at yourself and see if it holds true. Don't take my word for it, just be honest with yourself.

Last edited by StepVheN; 06-29-11 at 08:16.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #13
thefr0g
Ooglemagthorpe
Admin
 
thefr0g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,772
thefr0g will become famous soon enough
Credits: 50,470,322
lolwut?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #14
Sik Simon
Ate God
Overlord
 
Sik Simon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: The hood, US
Posts: 17,808
Sik Simon is on a distinguished road
Credits: 26,877
You have to be at least this ..... I high to understand this thread.
........I
__________________
*Saunters by with a devil-may-care look in my eye.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #15
Dark Messiah
Half-Wit Intellectual
Admin
 
Dark Messiah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Beautiful Sona-nyl
Posts: 14,853
Dark Messiah will become famous soon enough
Credits: 3,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicquodiam View Post
There's no observer, DM. Just the process of observation.

See that? It stands alone, it doesn't have a self "doing" the observation.
There's no shitter, just the act of shitting.

That stands alone. It doesn't make sense and it's not true but it stands alone I guess, whatever that counts for.

Quote:
Thinking is the brain sending out thoughts in reaction to experience.

Look at where thoughts come from though. Do you see a you choosing the thoughts?
Yes. That's what thought is. I observe myself thinking and direct the current of thoughts. One might say that this process is the basis for all observation and discussion.

Quote:
The self?

Because it's not there. There's just a body, thoughts, feelings, experience. These don't belong to anyone.
I can't experience another's experiences, so on the face of it this is wrong. My experiences are unique to me. You keep saying that the self isn't there but you want this to be taken on faith and in direct contradiction of facts in evidence.

Quote:
There are thoughts about a self, and thoughts attributing behaviors to this self, but the self has no counterpart in reality.

Test that.
Okay, I'll test it.

I observe that I have thoughts and experiences and a history.

Others confirm this suspicion via their own observations.

QED there is a reality to myself.

Quote:
There isn't a you to think. Just thoughts.
Then why do I only see my own thoughts and not the thoughts of others? Or if you're saying that we are only made up of thoughts, that doesn't mean that there is no you; quite the contrary, saying, "You are just your thoughts and experiences and observations" is to define you in terms of reality.

Quote:
See this assumption of a self? It's an assumption based on no evidence whatsoever, you've never had direct experience of a self. Look.
I am pretty sure that I have.

Quote:
The "I" in "I think" isn't there. That's what I'm saying. Everyday, common usage of I.
I don't know what you mean by that and I'm not sure if you do either.
__________________
Like any spelling mistake, mutations cannot give rise to information, but rather damage that which already exists.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #16
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
Cool StepVheN!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik Simon View Post
You have to be at least this ..... I high to understand this thread.
........I
You don't have to understand much other than that thoughts, memories, feelings, actions all exist, but a core you does not.

Find out if this is true; take that hypothesis above and run a little experiment on yourself; drop all presuppositions and look for the answer as if you've never investigated this before:

Where are thoughts coming from? Do you see a self which is doing the thinking, or are they just popping up from nowhere?

Is there an experiencer to experience? Is it possible that there isn't? Which theory better represents reality, as you see it?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #17
Jordyn
paraphiliac
 
Jordyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: the Big Sky Country
Posts: 24,684
Jordyn is on a distinguished road
Credits: 825,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicquodiam View Post
There's no observer, DM. Just the process of observation.

See that? It stands alone, it doesn't have a self "doing" the observation.
Two people observe the same image, each sees a different meaning and has an opposing experience...what decides the observation that inspires the feeling?




Quote:
Thinking is the brain sending out thoughts in reaction to experience.

Look at where thoughts come from though. Do you see a you choosing the thoughts?
Imagination, creativity...does the heroine choose the young handsome prince to have a dalliance with or the dark spooky knight to be stolen away by?

i choose, depending on what i wish the person observing to perceive.



Quote:
The self?

Because it's not there. There's just a body, thoughts, feelings, experience. These don't belong to anyone.

There are thoughts about a self, and thoughts attributing behaviors to this self, but the self has no counterpart in reality.
I decide what thoughts to share and keep private, how do they not belong to me?

counterpart, you've never met my dad, it can be frightening how much we're alike.



Quote:
See this assumption of a self? It's an assumption based on no evidence whatsoever, you've never had direct experience of a self. Look.
the self is what a person creates to separate and distinguish themselves from others, we choose what mask to convey. i experience My self on a daily basis, always the self i want to be and the self people perceive.

like that party question..."if you could be any animal?" followed up by "what would be your second choice animal?"

knowing the question i can manipulate a variety of perceptions, how am i not in control of the self?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self




Quote:
The "I" in "I think" isn't there. That's what I'm saying. Everyday, common usage of I.
did you think we would be receptive to your theory or did you think we'd be antagonistic towards it, what decided to post it here?

did i think about what other people said or did i just manually respond as a robot, why did we not all agree on the theory, why did several say the same thing with different words?

what decides how we react to the world?
__________________
blah, blah, blah...
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #18
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
There's no shitter, just the act of shitting.

That stands alone. It doesn't make sense and it's not true but it stands alone I guess, whatever that counts for.
It sounds weird, yeah, but that doesn't make it false.


Quote:
Yes. That's what thought is. I observe myself thinking and direct the current of thoughts. One might say that this process is the basis for all observation and discussion.
Look again DM. I guarantee that in no way did you observe "yourself thinking." You just saw thought.

Do you see an actual self, separate from the thought, thinking the thoughts? Remember, you can't be a thought. There are thoughts about a you, but that's as far as it goes.

Where does it look like thoughts are coming from?

Quote:
I can't experience another's experiences, so on the face of it this is wrong. My experiences are unique to me.
You don't experience any experience. There ARE individual experiences, yes, because there are individual humans, complete with 5 senses and a brain. No part of the human is an experiencer OF these experiences, only thoughts about a you, which are as true as thoughts about a pink unicorn.

Quote:
You keep saying that the self isn't there but you want this to be taken on faith and in direct contradiction of facts in evidence.
You're kidding. Jesus I hope you are kidding.

WHERE, did I ONCE, say take this on FAITH, or advocate any form of belief whatsoever?

DO NOT believe this. Test it out, find out if it is ACTUALLY a better representation of reality. Be as skeptical as possible, but keep an open mind to the POSSIBILITY that this is true. Then find out.

Quote:
Okay, I'll test it.
Awesome!


Quote:
I observe that I have thoughts and experiences and a history.
There is observation of thoughts and experiences. Some of these thoughts contain memories of past experiences.

What does the "I" in "I observe" refer to? Is it possible that it refers to nothing at all?

Quote:
Others confirm this suspicion via their own observations.
Because if others said it it must be true. You can do better than this DM, much better.

Quote:
QED there is a reality to myself.
Just a reality man, "you" are not a part of it. Look.

Quote:
Then why do I only see my own thoughts and not the thoughts of others?
You don't. They're not your thoughts. They are individual thoughts, true, others can't see them, but there's no owner OF these thoughts.

Quote:
Or if you're saying that we are only made up of thoughts, that doesn't mean that there is no you; quite the contrary, saying, "You are just your thoughts and experiences and observations" is to define you in terms of reality.
No, what I am saying is THERE IS NO YOU.

No, what I am saying is THERE IS NO YOU.

No, what I am saying is THERE IS NO YOU.

Thought's don't "make you up." AT MOST, there can be a thought ABOUT a you, but that "you" has as much reality as Harry Potter. There's only a fictional self.

See this? Where is the real life counterpart to the word "I"?

Quote:
I am pretty sure that I have.
Yeah don't be pretty sure. Find out, if there's a self it should be observable.

But there isn't one, is there? No matter where you look, there's no you. Even the looking is just looking, not "you looking."

Quote:
I don't know what you mean by that and I'm not sure if you do either.
Exactly what it sounds like. The "I" in "I think" isn't there.

The word "Think" refers to the thoughts, or process of thinking. See how they are real things? Thinking is real.

"I" refers to...? Can you find a thinker, as real as the thoughts themselves? Is it more true to say that there isn't one at all?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #19
Hicquodiam
Moans in the Night
 
Hicquodiam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 62
Hicquodiam is on a distinguished road
Credits: 7,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordyn View Post
Two people observe the same image, each sees a different meaning and has an opposing experience...what decides the observation that inspires the feeling?
Individual humans being raised differently.

There ARE individual perspectives, but these perspectives don't BELONG to a self, do they?


Quote:
Imagination, creativity...does the heroine choose the young handsome prince to have a dalliance with or the dark spooky knight to be stolen away by?
Yes, there's imagination and creativity. No imaginer.

Quote:
i choose, depending on what i wish the person observing to perceive.
You do not choose, there is choice. Find out if that is really true.

Quote:
I decide what thoughts to share and keep private, how do they not belong to me?
Where is the "I" that decides? What exactly is that word referring to? Find it's real life counterpart, and look to see if there isn't one in the first place.

Quote:
counterpart, you've never met my dad, it can be frightening how much we're alike.
Seriously? Christ, you know what I'm saying, at least take this somewhat seriously, if you actually care.

In reality, "I" refers to NOTHING. Is this true?


Quote:
the self is what a person creates to separate and distinguish themselves from others, we choose what mask to convey.
There are thoughts ABOUT a self. Thought's can't create an ACTUAL self in real life, any more than they can create an actual pink unicorn.

And look what you're saying. "A self creates a self to distinguish the self from other selves."

In other words, you create you to distinguish you from other people. See how ridiculous that is?

See if this is more correct: Brains interpret the world in terms of cause and effect. Due to this, there is the assumption that there is a you "causing" actions and experiencing the effect of these actions. But that you is just an assumption, it has no counterpart in reality.

Quote:
i experience My self on a daily basis, always the self i want to be and the self people perceive.
There's the experience of thoughts ABOUT a self, you've never experienced an actual one. Check.

People don't perceive a self, they perceive their image of a you.


Quote:
like that party question..."if you could be any animal?" followed up by "what would be your second choice animal?"


knowing the question i can manipulate a variety of perceptions, how am i not in control of the self?
How are you not in control of you? Because there's no you to begin with. There's control, sure, and conscious choice, but it's happening without a YOU actively choosing.


Quote:
did you think we would be receptive to your theory or did you think we'd be antagonistic towards it, what decided to post it here?
I thought you'd actually test it to find out if it has any basis in reality, which you've yet to do. If it's true, it will hold up to all your testing.


Quote:
did i think about what other people said or did i just manually respond as a robot,
You did not think, there was only thought. You did not respond, the response came up in reaction to external stimuli.

Find out if this is true.


Quote:
why did we not all agree on the theory, why did several say the same thing with different words?
Because you bunch are skeptical, that's good. That's very, very good. Just add in the extra step of looking at reality to see if this whole no-you thing actually has basis.

Quote:
what decides how we react to the world?
Find out. I guarantee though that you won't find a "you" reacting.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-11   #20
StepVheN
New Blood
 
StepVheN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4
StepVheN has disabled reputation
Credits: 1,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordyn View Post
Two people observe the same image, each sees a different meaning and has an opposing experience...what decides the observation that inspires the feeling?
The personality, beliefs and conditioning of the human brain perceiving them does. From what he's pointed out.

Now I've a question. Is that brain a self? Is it owned by a self? Is there a self anywhere in that equation?

Moving away from abstractions and what if statements. Can we observe anything you or me are saying here in reality?


Quote:
Imagination, creativity...does the heroine choose the young handsome prince to have a dalliance with or the dark spooky knight to be stolen away by?
The point is imagination and creativity are real and of great GREAT IMPORTANCE. No one could deny that. What isn't real or of importance is the assumption that these are qualities of a "self". They are standalone features of the human.

Quote:
i choose, depending on what i wish the person observing to perceive.
There is choice yes. But have you looked to see if there is a "you" choosing?


Quote:
I decide what thoughts to share and keep private, how do they not belong to me?
The thoughts exist. But where is the "I" that owns them? Show it to me?
Try and see it for yourself even.


Quote:
counterpart, you've never met my dad, it can be frightening how much we're alike.
That's how genes work.



Quote:
the self is what a person creates to separate and distinguish themselves from others, we choose what mask to convey.
So it's an act you play out? Based on thoughts?

In that case what is playing out the act?

And how can that act experience life? It's just an act?


What is it that experiences your life?





Quote:
i experience My self on a daily basis, always the self i want to be and the self people perceive.
There is experience of thoughts on a daily basis. To these thoughts you add the label "mine".
There is perception and emotion too which you label as "mine".

Shouldn't it be the self that does the labeling? Where is that self that does this labeling?

The labeling happens as a conditioned process of the brain. Sure. But where is the self that is supposedly doing it?


Quote:
knowing the question i can manipulate a variety of perceptions, how am i not in control of the self?
If you were in control of the self, wouldn't there have to be a second self that was in control of the first?



You've linked to a definition of the word self.



It no more proves or disproves the existence of demons than your link has the existence of a self really. Not a bad idea or a bad place to start, it's just that the definition defines the word self and not the actual phenomenon.

It simply gives you a way to conceptualise what a self is.


Quote:
did you think we would be receptive to your theory or did you think we'd be antagonistic towards it, what decided to post it here?
What would that matter. It's not as if he posted to make friends.


Quote:
did i think about what other people said or did i just manually respond as a robot, why did we not all agree on the theory, why did several say the same thing with different words?
Again why does that matter?

From his wording it is clear he was not looking for you to agree. He wanted to know if you would engage, take an honest look at what he was saying and verify it to see if it was or was not true.

Quote:
what decides how we react to the world?
that question pre-suposes a self. That's like saying what decides how a unicorn reacts to the world, in order to prove the existence of a unicorn.
It's circular logic.

The way to find out if this is true or not is to look at what he is saying and see if it holds true in reality.

I'll do this now. I'll just check this whole thing out to see if it is true.


He's saying there is no self. BUT all these things I thought were mine exist. That doesn't mean the self exists though, just the things. Maybe there was never a self, just personality and emotion and thought and experience.

Observing my life at this moment I see my hands typing on the keyboard. Actually I just see hands typing on a keyboard. They're banging out words that are just popping up in my head.
I'm not choosing these words. They're just coming into my head. I'm not even really choosing to type this shit. I just noticed I'm kicking my leg. I didn't really chose that either.

All these things are happening which means if a "self" exists they should be happening to it. To me. Looking now.

Thoughts are popping up. I'm still typing. These things are just happening. Everything is happening as though on automatic.

It's all just rolling on nicely. The thoughts come into my head and I'm typing. Sometimes I feel as though I choose them other times I don't. The thing that would......shit...yeah.. the choice just pops into my head..... I don't really think about the choice. It just happens.

Also. okay... Ahm. Even when I do think about it before hand, those thoughts just pop into my head.... The choice to think about choosing before choosing just happens automatically.

All of this is just happening.

There is no me controlling this.

It would seem that we could argue about this all day but until we actually check out the phenomenon he's talking about we won't know for definite if it's true or false.

I just took a look. Takes 5 minutes. I've noticed this before. Nothing's changed. Still no me.
is Offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Recent Threads
Fuck Snow
2 Days Ago 03:36
Last post by Dark Messiah
3 Hours Ago 16:14
Science Disproves...
11-01-10 15:38
by Pahu
Last post by Pahu
9 Hours Ago 10:04
Hey fr0g
10-20-17 02:49
Last post by thefr0g
10 Hours Ago 09:25
What Are you Listening...
03-21-05 07:40
By Cucking Funt
Last post by Sic Simon
22 Hours Ago 21:32
are you gonna eat your...
11-01-17 01:43
Last post by Sic Simon
6 Days Ago 03:45
Things that I'm not...
10-30-05 21:09
Last post by Sic Simon
6 Days Ago 00:51
basic earthling rights
07-17-14 22:08
Last post by Sic Simon
1 Week Ago 22:11
Where are the tits?
2 Weeks Ago 20:38
Last post by Sic Simon
2 Weeks Ago 21:33
Obama sends a letter.
10-19-17 22:42
Last post by Sic Simon
3 Weeks Ago 14:09
Put your liter of cola...
08-06-17 20:53
Last post by Dark Messiah
3 Weeks Ago 23:09
Online Users: 46
0 members and 46 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 1928, 06-09-15 at 19:20.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0 RC2


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com

© 2006 - 2016 Dark Forum | About Dark Forum | Advertisers | Investors | Legal | A member of the Crowdgather Forum Community