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Old 03-14-12   #1001
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Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
False dilemma blah blah blah.

Lazy arguments...... blah blah blah.... it is hard to get a whole sentence from you these days.
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Old 03-14-12   #1002
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Originally Posted by thefr0g View Post
Let's be clear, are you saying you don't believe in extraterrestrial life period? Or intelligent extra terrestrial life? I find the probability of there not being life somewhere else in the universe to be very very small. Intelligent life much less so. Intelligent life lucky enough to locate us, and smart enough to come here undetected way way wayyyy less so.
I believe that we don't currently have any reason to "believe" anything about the presence of extraterrestrial life, much less intelligent life, much less advanced enough to create life on other planets.

Amongst other things if such life were common one would expect it to have proliferated through the galaxy by now, unless by random chance everyone else was at the same starting point or we were ahead of other species' evolution.
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Old 03-14-12   #1003
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What if coming here to see the humans in the zoo was like an afternoon drive?? LOL

Anyway, no one can deny that life does exist elsewhere. Well, I suppose you can but the odds are against you. It does.

What I was trying to get across to Pahu was that where the facts begin to fail all we can do is postulate. We cannot BE CERTAIN of anything until we have all the facts. I am however very certain that some old guy in a robe did not create the whole vastness that is our reality, may as well attribute it all to Santa Claus!!

Any theorem that is supported by facts is far better than the lazy belief that some great being created everything. Evolution is that theorem, and a fine one at that.
Why do you bring it back to Pahu? This thread has legitimate conversation in it and you're trying to relate it back to the christ-o-matic spam bot. Forget Pahu.
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Old 03-14-12   #1004
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Originally Posted by Dyshade View Post
What if coming here to see the humans in the zoo was like an afternoon drive?? LOL

Anyway, no one can deny that life does exist elsewhere. Well, I suppose you can but the odds are against you. It does.

What I was trying to get across to Pahu was that where the facts begin to fail all we can do is postulate. We cannot BE CERTAIN of anything until we have all the facts. I am however very certain that some old guy in a robe did not create the whole vastness that is our reality, may as well attribute it all to Santa Claus!!

Any theorem that is supported by facts is far better than the lazy belief that some great being created everything. Evolution is that theorem, and a fine one at that.

Isn’t it absurd for evolutionists to ridicule creationists for believing God made everything out of nothing while evolutionists maintain that somehow nothing turned itself into everything?
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Old 03-14-12   #1005
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Molten Earth? 1

For decades, textbooks have taught that the early Earth was molten for 500,000,000 years, because it formed by meteoritic bombardment (a). If so, the heat released by the impacts would have melted the entire Earth many times over (b). Had Earth ever been molten, dense, nonreactive chemical elements such as gold would have sunk to Earth’s core. Gold is 70% denser than lead, yet is found at the Earth’s surface (c). Therefore, the entire Earth was never molten and did not form by meteoritic bombardment.

a. “The textbook view that the earth spent its first half a billion years drenched in magma could be wrong.” John W. Valley, “A Cool Early Earth?” Scientific American, Vol. 294, October 2005, p. 59.

b. “The kinetic energy (~5 x 10^38 ergs) released in the largest impacts (1.5 x 10^27 g at 9 km/sec) would be several times greater than that required to melt the entire Earth.” George W. Wetherill, “Occurrence of Giant Impacts during the Growth of the Terrestrial Planets,” Science, Vol. 228, 17 May 1985, p. 879.

c. If gold were found only near volcanoes, then one might claim that gold was brought up to the Earth’s surface by volcanoes. However, gold is seldom found near volcanoes.

Suppose that extremely hot water (932°F or 500°C) circulated under the crust—a crust that had never been molten. Gold in high concentrations could go into solution. If the solution then came up to the Earth’s surface fast enough, little gold would precipitate as the water’s pressure dropped. If this happened, about 250 cubic miles of water must have burst forth to account for the gold found in just one gold mining region in Canada. [See Robert Kerrich, “Nature’s Gold Factory,” Science, Vol. 284, 25 June 1999, pp. 2101–2102.] If these ideal pressure-temperature conditions did not exist, even more water must come up faster to account for the Earth’s gold deposits. These are hardly the slow processes that evolutionists visualize. On pages 108–139 and 429–433, you will see how, why, and when vast amounts of hot water burst up through faults.

About 40% of all gold mined in the world is from the Witwatersrand Basin in South Africa. This gold, deposited in compressional fractures within the basin, precipitated from water whose temperature exceeded 300°C. [See A. C. Barnicoat et al., “Hydrothermal Gold Mineralization in the Witwatersrand Basin,” Nature, Vol. 386, 24 April 1997, pp. 820–824.]

Robert R. Loucks and John A. Mavrogenes, “Gold Solubility in Supercritical Hydrothermal Brines Measured in Synthetic Fluid Inclusions,” Science, Vol. 284, 25 June 1999, pp. 2159–2163.


[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown]
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Old 03-15-12   #1006
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Molten Earth? 2

Radioactive dating of certain zircon minerals also contradicts a molten Earth. Trace elements within those zircons show that the zircons formed on a cold Earth (less than 212°F) (d). However, based on radioactive dating, those zircons formed billions of years ago when, according to evolutionists, the Earth should have been molten (exceeding 1,800°F)—an obvious contradiction. Either the molten Earth idea or the radioactive dating method must be wrong; perhaps both are wrong.

Meteorites contain much more of the element xenon than Earth’s surface rocks, relative to other noble (inert) gases such as helium, neon, and argon. Had Earth formed by meteoritic bombardment, Earth’s surface rocks would have a different composition, and our atmosphere would contain up to ten times more xenon than it has (e). If Earth did not evolve by meteoritic bombardment, it may have begun as one large body. [See “Melting the Inner Earth” on pages 518–521.]

d. John W. Valley, “A Cool Early Earth?” Scientific American, Vol. 294, October 2005, pp. 58–65.

e. “Meteorites, he notes, contain 10 times as much xenon, relative to other noble gasses, than occurs in Earth’s atmosphere. In addition, the relative abundance of xenon isotopes found in meteorites doesn’t jibe with the pattern found on Earth. If meteorites did deliver most of the water to our planet, they also would have provided xenon, and our atmosphere would have to have a very different composition, Owen maintains.” Ron Cowen, “Found: Primordial Water,” Science News, Vol. 156, 30 October 1999, p. 285.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown]
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Old 03-15-12   #1007
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Originally Posted by Pahu View Post
Isn’t it absurd for evolutionists to ridicule creationists for believing God made everything out of nothing while evolutionists maintain that somehow nothing turned itself into everything?
Not at all. See evolution does not specifically state that everything came from nothing, that is a mere distraction ploy by creationists. Evolution posits that everything evolves into a fitter form over time in order to better survive its surroundings.

Energy is pretty much eternal, it may change form over time but it does not dissipate.
Our Universe bubble is one of many.

Just as your religious views are one of many.

The reality is, we have yet to provide answers to our questions surrounding the beginnings of our Universe. This however does not give you the right to play mystic and give your own answers independent of any scientific thought.

I played your game, once you answer a question with supernatural rhetoric all the other answers become just as justified, including aliens and unicorns and ancient dead dark elves. May as well believe in Odin The One Eyed God and Ragnarok!! The Norse Mythology contains a fascinating creation mythos that is just as credible as the judeo-christian one!!

Pull your fucking god blinders off boy!!! Science is the new kid on the block!
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Old 03-15-12   #1008
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By the way Bubba, I am not an "evolutionist". Though you are most distinctly a creationist.
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Old 03-15-12   #1009
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Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
I believe that we don't currently have any reason to "believe" anything about the presence of extraterrestrial life, much less intelligent life, much less advanced enough to create life on other planets.

Amongst other things if such life were common one would expect it to have proliferated through the galaxy by now, unless by random chance everyone else was at the same starting point or we were ahead of other species' evolution.
The betting man would go against you. I would myself postulate that within 50-100 years we will be presented with enough evidence to support alien incursions through out human history for whatever reasons.

We live in a very young part of our galaxy, some planets closer in to the middle have billions of years on us. We went from the horse and carriage to space travel in less than 75 years, I can only boggle at what could be done in the space of a billion years starting from our technological prowess now.

Also, we may just be curiosities playing in mud to an advanced civilization, one which should be treated in a hands off manner. Hence no contact.

Plus, our Universe is HUGE!!!! Given that there are 7 billion humans on this little spit ball I could easily say that life may be very prolific out there and we could stumble about for centuries and never run into it.
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Old 03-15-12   #1010
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Originally Posted by Dyshade View Post

Not at all. See evolution does not specifically state that everything came from nothing, that is a mere distraction ploy by creationists. Evolution posits that everything evolves into a fitter form over time in order to better survive its surroundings.
That is true for organic evolution, but not cosmic evolution. Since there was nothing before the universe, then it came from nothing, which is not possible with a naturalistic cause, which means the cause was supernatural. Also, without a universe there could be no life, so there is a connection.

As to the organic idea of the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth, the scientific evidence does not support that notion.

Quote:
Energy is pretty much eternal, it may change form over time but it does not dissipate.
If that is true, then science is wrong. The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.

All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed. He is called God!

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Our Universe bubble is one of many.
Where is the evidence supporting your assertion? Since universe means everything that exists, can there be more than one?

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Just as your religious views are one of many.
How does that relate to the universe?

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The reality is, we have yet to provide answers to our questions surrounding the beginnings of our Universe. This however does not give you the right to play mystic and give your own answers independent of any scientific thought.
Does a scientist have the right to speculate? How are my answers independent of any scientific thought?
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Old 03-15-12   #1011
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That is true for organic evolution, but not cosmic evolution. Since there was nothing before the universe, then it came from nothing, which is not possible with a naturalistic cause, which means the cause was supernatural. Also, without a universe there could be no life, so there is a connection.
Not true, just another misdirection of yours. I never said there was nothing before our Universe. As a matter of fact new advances and discoveries have seriously put into doubt that we are the ONLY Universe. Look back to my "bubble" post for a link.


Quote:
As to the organic idea of the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth, the scientific evidence does not support that notion.

Yes, we have a missing link. Yet all scientific evidence to date STILL supports the theory of evolution, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE, scientific or otherwise that in any way supports creationism. NONE!!



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If that is true, then science is wrong. The universe cannot be infinitely old or all useable energy would have been lost already (entropy). This has not occurred. Therefore, the universe is not infinitely old. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and since the universe is everything that exists, could it exist before it existed? Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. What brought the universe into existence? It would have to be greater than the universe and be a sufficient cause to it.
Entropy is merely the lack of energy where once it was abundant, a slow bleeding away of energy. That energy does not in fact vanish at all. Energy cannot be destroyed, it can be utilized, stored, and its inherent source may be extinguished yet that energy remains, merely changed. Even your Jesus knew this, as did those that followed as is shown by the letters upon the cross-- INRI. If you do not understand the reference perhaps you should go back to theology school.

Quote:
All things that came into existence were caused to exist. You cannot have an infinite regression of causes (otherwise an infinity of time has been crossed which is impossible because an infinity cannot be crossed). Therefore, logically, there must be a single uncaused cause that has always existed. He is called God!
More misdirection, plus your too happy jumping at the chance to explain away scientific mysteries using the ideal of a god. Let me just ask a simple question, accordingly to your logic, or theologic as it were, if god made everything than who made god? He cannot have just appeared out of nothingness with the full knowledge available to create ordered universes. So where did he and his knowledge come from?? Eh?? I can tell you, he was created by the imaginations of primitive man in order to give themselves answers where they had none. And you still share those same beliefs...


Quote:
Where is the evidence supporting your assertion? Since universe means everything that exists, can there be more than one?
Our Universe is a large egg-like bubble. Does god lay outside that bubble laughing? Nay!! Other Universes full of other galaxies lay outside the barrier. Once again look back to my "bubble" post for the enlightening ;link.


Quote:
How does that relate to the universe?
Our universe is one of many, your views are one of many. Your brain is really overwhelmed by christian ideology, it is sad really.


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Does a scientist have the right to speculate? How are my answers independent of any scientific thought?
I will let this copy and paste answer that question. You are all misdirection and twinkies Pahu!!


From Proof-Of-Evolution.com--

""Science calls scientific speculation a "hypothesis." It is the basis for more research. Wild speculations are completely acceptable because examining such speculations is what leads to learning.

Creationism has an opposite tack. Scientific speculation is where creationism ends. For example, when Spirit Lake was emptied by the Mt. St. Helens explosion, the water from the lake cut a gorge that I was told is one-fortieth the size of the grand canyon.

That gorge was cut in one day.

Could the Grand Canyon have been similarly cut in one day by the waters of an even larger lake?


Sure it could have, and those who practice "creation science," rather than just science, would like to leave it at that. The Grand Canyon could have been carved in one day, so the earth could be only 6,000 years old.

But the question is not whether the Grand Canyon could have been made in one day. The question is, was it carved in one day?

Science seeks to answer that question in order to find out what's true. Creationism seeks to ignore the question, hoping that what it wants to be true won't be proven false.""
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Old 03-15-12   #1012
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So you saying their both wrong? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle? Science try to answer questions but cant prove the metaphysical and creationism obviously cant prove anything but actually makes a claim to something beyond the boundaries of our physical universe? NEOSCIENTOLOGICREATIONISM.
I really dont believe its something our tiny human brains can understand.
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Old 03-15-12   #1013
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So you saying their both wrong? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle? Science try to answer questions but cant prove the metaphysical and creationism obviously cant prove anything but actually makes a claim to something beyond the boundaries of our physical universe? NEOSCIENTOLOGICREATIONISM.
I really dont believe its something our tiny human brains can understand.
Nah, creationism is very wrong in almost all of its aspects.

The Science of evolution is not wrong, we just need more answers. But we have proven that allelles change between generations causing mutations which directly prove evolution occurs. So evolution is scientific FACT, the theory is in how does it work?? We do not really comprehend how evolution works, though we see it working all the time around us.
Trying to answer questions with supernatural ideologies is the easiest way out of actually having to work for an answer.

Religious leaders centuries ago saw the danger that scientific procedure brought to religious ideology and attempted to kill, murder, or dishonor all who proposed a scientific answer before a religious one. Luckily scientists fought for the knowledge that we have now, knowledge which is still in danger from fundamentalist religious theology.

Knowledge that could readily destroy religious fundamentalist structure, merely by proving scientific theory.

For instance, when we do find intelligent life, and it does not appear as we do, how fares the whole God created Man in his image? Do we demonize the aliens because they are not made in Gods image and go to war with them to destroy the satanic imps??

Or do we realize that life, intelligent life, may come in far more forms than we ever thought imaginable. Hell ancient texts from India state that over 400,000 different life forms exist in the heavens!! Those same texts state that some of those aliens used to circle the Earth in flying cities and aircraft which they called vimanas.

Pahu is dead wrong, a false prophet of a dying age. One day, generations from now hopefully we will not have religion, we will instead have spirituality.
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Old 03-15-12   #1014
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" O disciple, a student in the science of government, sail in oceans in steamers, fly in the air in airplanes, know God the creator through the Vedas, control thy breath through yoga, through astronomy know the functions of day and night, know all the Vedas, Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva, by means of their constituent parts."

" Through astronomy, geography, and geology, go thou to all the different countries of the world under the sun. Mayest thou attain through good preaching to statesmanship and artisanship, through medical science obtain knowledge of all medicinal plants, through hydrostatics learn the different uses of water, through electricity understand the working of ever lustrous lightening. Carry out my instructions willingly." (Yajur-veda 6.21).

" O royal skilled engineer, construct sea-boats, propelled on water by our experts, and airplanes, moving and flying upward, after the clouds that reside in the mid-region, that fly as the boats move on the sea, that fly high over and below the watery clouds. Be thou, thereby, prosperous in this world created by the Omnipresent God, and flier in both air and lightning." (Yajur-veda 10.19).

" The atomic energy fissions the ninety-nine elements, covering its path by the bombardments of neutrons without let or hindrance. Desirous of stalking the head, ie. The chief part of the swift power, hidden in the mass of molecular adjustments of the elements, this atomic energy approaches it in the very act of fissioning it by the above-noted bombardment. Herein, verily the scientists know the similar hidden striking force of the rays of the sun working in the orbit of the moon." (Atharva-veda 20.41.1-.


All of those from the Indian Vedas, writings which are estimated to be from 1500BC and earlier.
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Old 03-17-12   #1015
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The betting man would go against you. I would myself postulate that within 50-100 years we will be presented with enough evidence to support alien incursions through out human history for whatever reasons.

We live in a very young part of our galaxy, some planets closer in to the middle have billions of years on us. We went from the horse and carriage to space travel in less than 75 years, I can only boggle at what could be done in the space of a billion years starting from our technological prowess now.

Also, we may just be curiosities playing in mud to an advanced civilization, one which should be treated in a hands off manner. Hence no contact.

Plus, our Universe is HUGE!!!! Given that there are 7 billion humans on this little spit ball I could easily say that life may be very prolific out there and we could stumble about for centuries and never run into it.
Yes, there are stars and planets and galaxies much older than our own. However, there is no reason to believe that such old systems would have a sufficient amount of relatively heavy elements like, say, carbon, sodium, and potassium, to allow life to exist or advance.

The pro on the belief in extra terrestrial life side is that we really don't know the limits or capabilities of life, and life might exist under conditions very different from what we believe necessary.

The con is that the conditions we believe necessary for life as we know it are very rare; even the chance of the very most primitive life forms evolving in a given system seem minute, let alone the odds against the development of an interstellar civilization.
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Old 03-17-12   #1016
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Most of the famous astronomers and physicists I hear talk seem to think it's pretty likely.
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Old 03-17-12   #1017
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Yep, there is a large body of scientists who say that intelligent life is a given. I say that yes, it does exist.

And when we do make contact it will blow the hell out of all religious establishments. Of course the Catholics might survive it, I hear that the Vatican has contact protocols in place
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Old 03-18-12   #1018
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Most of the famous astronomers and physicists I hear talk seem to think it's pretty likely.
But we don't really know. And we damned well don't know enough to talk about how common intelligent life is, and there's no reason at all to think that aliens were flying around building the Pyramids.
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Old 03-18-12   #1019
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But we don't really know. And we damned well don't know enough to talk about how common intelligent life is, and there's no reason at all to think that aliens were flying around building the Pyramids.
How were they built than??

We attempted to make small scale pyramids and found it beyond our means with even our tech today. The stones are just way to heavy. Ever hear of that stone park in Florida?? A guy built a park using up to 10 ton stones all by himself, it is a mystery today as to how this guy did it. He claimed he had a device which made the stones lighter so he could position them. He never said where it came from nor did he leave it to be found after his death.

How about the huge stone structures in Peru?? Some of the stones appear to have been melted and formed. The heat that it would take to do so was beyond the means of ancient man, or at least that is what we are told.

So many mysteries, and hopefully as science progresses and we learn more these mysteries will be answered. Left to religion we would all be living in dung roofed wooden huts and shitting in holes in between our daily beatings for the lord.
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Old 03-18-12   #1020
Pahu
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Evolving Planets? 1

Contrary to popular opinion, planets should not form from just the mutual gravitational attraction of particles orbiting the Sun. (a). Orbiting particles are much more likely to be scattered or expelled by their gravitational attraction than they are to be permanently pulled together. Experiments have shown that colliding particles almost always fragment rather than stick together (b). (Similar difficulties exist in trying to form a moon from particles orbiting a planet.)

Despite these problems, let us assume that pebble-size to moon-size particles somehow evolved. “Growing a planet” by many small collisions will produce an almost nonspinning planet, because spins imparted by impacts will be largely self-canceling (c).

a. Very special conditions are required to capture and then merge orbiting bodies. They are discussed more fully starting on page 281.

b. John F. Kerridge and James F. Vedder, “An Experimental Approach to Circumsolar Accretion,” Symposium on the Origin of the Solar System (Paris, France: Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, 1972), pp. 282–283.

“It turns out to be surprisingly difficult for planetesimals to accrete mass during even the most gentle collisions.” Erik Asphaug, “The Small Planets,” Scientific American, Vol. 282, May 2000, p. 54.

c. Tim Folger, “This Battered Earth,” Discover, January 1994, p. 33.

“‘We came to the conclusion,’ says Lissauer, ‘that if you accrete planets from a uniform disk of planetesimals, [the observed] prograde rotation just can’t be explained,’ The simulated bombardment leaves a growing planet spinning once a week at most, not once a day.” Richard A. Kerr, “Theoreticians Are Putting a New Spin on the Planets,” Science, Vol. 258, 23 October 1992, p. 548.

Luke Dones and Scott Tremaine, “Why Does the Earth Spin Forward?” Science, Vol. 259, 15 January 1993, pp. 350–354.

Some believe that the inner planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars) gained their spins through a few very large and improbable impacts. However, this appeal to large or improbable impacts will not work for the giant outer planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune), which have the most spin energy. Such impacts on these gaseous planets would be even more improbable, because they move more slowly and are so far from the center of the solar system. Besides, impacts from large rocks would not account for the composition of the giant planets—basically hydrogen and helium.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown]
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