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Old 11-29-10   #61
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Fully-Developed Organs 1


All species appear fully developed, not partially developed. They show design (a). Macroevolution would require an upward change in the complexity of certain traits and organs. Microevolution involves only “horizontal” (or even downward) changes—no increasing complexity. Also note that all creationists agree that natural selection occurs. While natural selection does not result in macroevolution, it accounts for many variations within a very narrow range.

Science should always base conclusions on what is seen and reproducible. So what is observed? We see variations in lizards. We also see birds. In-between forms (or intermediates), which should be vast in number if macroevolution occurred, are never seen as fossils or living species. A careful observer can usually see unbelievable discontinuities in these claimed upward changes.

Ever since Darwin, evolutionists have made excuses for why the world and our fossil museums are not overflowing with intermediates.

a. William Paley, Natural Theology (England: 1802; reprint, Houston: St. Thomas Press, 1972).

This work by Paley, which contains many powerful arguments for a Creator, is a classic in scientific literature. Some might feel that because it was written in 1802, it is out of date. Not so. Hoyle and Wickramasinghe compared Darwin’s ideas with those of Paley as follows:

“The speculations of The Origin of Species turned out to be wrong, as we have seen in this chapter. It is ironic that the scientific facts throw Darwin out, but leave William Paley, a figure of fun to the scientific world for more than a century, still in the tournament with a chance of being the ultimate winner.” Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space: A Theory of Cosmic Creationism (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1981), pp. 96–97.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown
http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...iences12.html]
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Old 11-29-10   #62
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There is no such thing as "fully developed" or "partially developed". An organism either is or isn't suited to survive in its environment; that's all. The human knee is poorly designed from any viewpoint, but it doesn't matter to evolution; we have enough advantages to overcome this disadvantage. A bull dog would have a devil of a time surviving in the wild, but it doesn't matter to the bull dog; it was bred by humans for human purposes to which it was suited.

The problem with creationist arguments is that they're a negative proof (if I can disprove evolution, then surely the idea that God created everything six thousand years ago is the only alternative) in which those attempting to disprove something purposefully refuse to understand that which they are trying to disprove.
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Old 11-30-10   #63
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Originally Posted by Pahu View Post
I have faith that the sun will rise next morning because it has been proven to rise each morning in the past. Isn't that a fact? I have faith that God's revelation in His Bible is true because He has revealed several hundred prophecies that have been fulfilled, proven by history.

Evolutionists have faith in evolution because that is what they want to believe, despite the scientific evidence to the contrary! Ditto atheism!
Thats about the first post I have seen where you have not quoted anything. But you are wrong. They HAVE proven that evolution happens, the only thing they HAVEN'T proven is HOW it happens.

God actually isn't that old of an invention or fable. He spawns from Pagans, the father, son and holy spirit were pagan in origin. Only, he was actually a she and she was the triple moon goddess, the maiden, mother and crone. Or if you want to get technical and say that was bullshit, ther are older dieties that were in fact, a representation of something OLDER than god.

ALSO, most of the old testement bible stories spawn from somethingh A LOT older, such as Gielgermesh (Spelling? Not sure how you spell that) who was a character in a much earlier story which mirrors the story that of Noah. Only Gielgermesh, was a story from something that was MUCH OLDER than god that christians or catholics call 'Heretics' 'Pagans' or 'Demons'. I am not sure but he was Mesopotamian I think.

There's a civilization been found that is even older than Mesopotamia which have different gods and godesses that have no mention of the christian god.

So tell me, if god is that old, if he was, to bible bashers, the be all and end all of life itself and everything in the bible was true... Why in the crap would 'god' want to steal the material of heretics?

Pathetic, anyone can take what they want out of the bible and interpret it into what they want to think. All this shit about prophecies in the bible is bullshit. I mean come on! They have 4 of Jesus's deciples in the bible... Wheres the other fucking 9?

As for revilations in the bible. Don't you think that is a little old fashioned? Taking the bible as gosphel is a bit fucking stupid. Gone past naive now, GULLABLE!

I honestly think that bible bashing should be outlawed.
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Old 11-30-10   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
There is no such thing as "fully developed" or "partially developed". An organism either is or isn't suited to survive in its environment; that's all. The human knee is poorly designed from any viewpoint, but it doesn't matter to evolution; we have enough advantages to overcome this disadvantage. A bull dog would have a devil of a time surviving in the wild, but it doesn't matter to the bull dog; it was bred by humans for human purposes to which it was suited.

The problem with creationist arguments is that they're a negative proof (if I can disprove evolution, then surely the idea that God created everything six thousand years ago is the only alternative) in which those attempting to disprove something purposefully refuse to understand that which they are trying to disprove.
Hahaha! I actually thought that the whole 'God created everything six thousand years ago' was a huge joke. My ex's parents said that to me and I almost pissed my pants for laughing but it got a bit uncomfortable when they were not laughing... Kind of freaked me out a little. People can be so fucking stupid.

As for creationism, you can't argue with them, they are closed off to ANY type of alternative.

Even if they never prove how evolution happens, it still does, everyone sits and wonders where we came from but look at the periodic table, just a bunch of chemicals, metals and gasses. Evolution happens.
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Old 11-30-10   #65
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Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
Taking the bible as gosphel is a bit fucking stupid.
I just quoted this line because I think its funny.
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Old 11-30-10   #66
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Originally Posted by Dyshade View Post
Usually the reason you have faith in something is because it cannot be proven. Thusly anything that has to be taken on faith is usually not factual. If it was you would not have to have faith in it.


as that applies to good men...you're right..
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Old 11-30-10   #67
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Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
Thats about the first post I have seen where you have not quoted anything. But you are wrong. They HAVE proven that evolution happens, the only thing they HAVEN'T proven is HOW it happens.

God actually isn't that old of an invention or fable. He spawns from Pagans, the father, son and holy spirit were pagan in origin. Only, he was actually a she and she was the triple moon goddess, the maiden, mother and crone. Or if you want to get technical and say that was bullshit, ther are older dieties that were in fact, a representation of something OLDER than god.

ALSO, most of the old testement bible stories spawn from somethingh A LOT older, such as Gielgermesh (Spelling? Not sure how you spell that) who was a character in a much earlier story which mirrors the story that of Noah. Only Gielgermesh, was a story from something that was MUCH OLDER than god that christians or catholics call 'Heretics' 'Pagans' or 'Demons'. I am not sure but he was Mesopotamian I think.

There's a civilization been found that is even older than Mesopotamia which have different gods and godesses that have no mention of the christian god.

So tell me, if god is that old, if he was, to bible bashers, the be all and end all of life itself and everything in the bible was true... Why in the crap would 'god' want to steal the material of heretics?

Pathetic, anyone can take what they want out of the bible and interpret it into what they want to think. All this shit about prophecies in the bible is bullshit. I mean come on! They have 4 of Jesus's deciples in the bible... Wheres the other fucking 9?

As for revilations in the bible. Don't you think that is a little old fashioned? Taking the bible as gosphel is a bit fucking stupid. Gone past naive now, GULLABLE!

I honestly think that bible bashing should be outlawed.
you're slightly right, but since Abraham came out of sumeria those stories are understandable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

Quote:
I have faith that God's revelation in His Bible is true because He has revealed several hundred prophecies that have been fulfilled, proven by history.
the funny thing about prophecies is like others mentioned about the bible is that they're subject to interpretation to the people of the times...what prophecies are you thinking of specifically?

there are probably several historic instances that would match, but is that prophecy or just us tying it all together to give some reason for people behaving badly?

to give credit to biblical prophecy you also have to acknowledge those by, nostradamus, edgar cayce, even those three mexican girls who saw the virgin mary that gave them prophecies...so many prophecies so little time...i mean, two years, that sucks!

i can have faith in God, but not predictions...why does a person need some enigmatic stanza to know the world is going to have a tragedy, when by an ideal relationships with God, He'd tell you Himself when to head for the caves. *shrugs*

but i've always been about about personal omens versus universal messages.
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Old 11-30-10   #68
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They have found an ancient civilization that dates back to around the copper age (REALLY OLD!) take a look at the fired clay stuff. Remind you of the wiccan goddess? I did have a link to the new york times but the bloody thing wants me to login.

Bollocks! Not doing it!

Heres the link if you want to create an account.

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=ht...Q5B5i!kD0f01nm

The point I was attempting to make was that christianity is bullshit.
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Old 11-30-10   #69
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Originally Posted by thefr0g View Post
I just quoted this line because I think its funny.
I just read that back... It wasn't supposed to be a pun. Heh.
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Old 11-30-10   #70
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I just read that back... It wasn't supposed to be a pun. Heh.
Oh I know, thats what made it funny.
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Old 12-01-10   #71
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Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
They have found an ancient civilization that dates back to around the copper age (REALLY OLD!) take a look at the fired clay stuff. Remind you of the wiccan goddess? I did have a link to the new york times but the bloody thing wants me to login.


The point I was attempting to make was that christianity is bullshit.
no more than any other religion that's ever existed...it's actually quite new to the world of religion and derived more from Zorasterism, that was the first religion to bring duality to the system, the romans altered it to their need for conquest...so blame rome, not the christians, if not for constatine they'd have been just a small cult eaten by lions a couple thousand years ago.

they've found even earlier cultures...

http://www.world-science.net/otherne...130_python.htm

Man has had gods, since we've been Man.
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Old 12-01-10   #72
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Thats why its no smarter than to believe in the current batch than it is to believe in the older versions.
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Old 12-01-10   #73
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Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
I honestly think that bible bashing should be outlawed.
Well, you sure did a good job of bashing the Bible. The problem is that your assertions and accusations are false.
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Old 12-01-10   #74
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Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
The human knee is poorly designed from any viewpoint,
Why do you believe that?

Quote:
A bull dog would have a devil of a time surviving in the wild, but it doesn't matter to the bull dog; it was bred by humans for human purposes to which it was suited.
Selective breeding is the use of microevolution.

Quote:
The problem with creationist arguments is that they're a negative proof (if I can disprove evolution, then surely the idea that God created everything six thousand years ago is the only alternative) in which those attempting to disprove something purposefully refuse to understand that which they are trying to disprove.
Since there are only two possible explanations for origins--evolution or creation--and evolution is proved to be false, doesn't that leave creation?
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Old 12-01-10   #75
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Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
Even if they never prove how evolution happens, it still does, everyone sits and wonders where we came from but look at the periodic table, just a bunch of chemicals, metals and gasses. Evolution happens.
Where is the evidence that evolution is true?
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Old 12-01-10   #76
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the funny thing about prophecies is like others mentioned about the bible is that they're subject to interpretation to the people of the times...what prophecies are you thinking of specifically?
Here are some links that list several hundred fulfilled Bible prophecies. Many of them were fulfilled outside of the Bible and verified by history and archaeology:


http://www.100prophecies.org/

http://www.reasons.org/fulfilled-pro...iability-bible

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm

http://www.greatcom.org/resources/ar...06/default.htm
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Old 12-01-10   #77
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Fully-Developed Organs 2


There are no examples of half-developed feathers, eyes (b), skin, tubes (arteries, veins, intestines, etc.), or any of the vital organs (dozens in humans alone). Tubes that are not 100% complete are a liability; so are partially developed organs and some body parts. For example, if a leg of a reptile were to evolve into a wing of a bird, it would become a bad leg long before it became a good wing (c).

b. Asa Gray, a famous Harvard botany professor, who was to become a leading theistic evolutionist, wrote to Darwin expressing doubt that natural processes could explain the formation of complex organs such as the eye. Darwin expressed a similar concern in his return letter of February 1860.

“The eye to this day gives me a cold shudder, but when I think of the fine known gradations [Darwin believed possible if millions of years of evolution were available], my reason tells me I ought to conquer the cold shudder.” Charles Darwin, The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Vol. 2, editor Francis Darwin (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1899), pp. 66–67.

And yet, Darwin admitted that:

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.” Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, p. 175.

Darwin then proceeded to speculate on how the eye might nevertheless have evolved. However, no evidence was given. Later, he explained how his theory could be falsified.

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, p. 179.

“It’s one of the oldest riddles in evolutionary biology: How does natural selection gradually create an eye, or any complex organ for that matter? The puzzle troubled Charles Darwin, who nevertheless gamely nailed together a ladder of how it might have happened—from photoreceptor cells to highly refined orbits—by drawing examples from living organisms such as mollusks and arthropods. But holes in this progression have persistently bothered evolutionary biologists and left openings that creationists have been only too happy to exploit.” Virginia Morell, “Placentas May Nourish Complexity Studies,” Science, Vol. 298, 1 November 2002, p. 945.

David Reznick, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California (Riverside), explained to Virginia Morell:

“Darwin had to use organisms from different classes, because there isn’t a living group of related organisms that have all the steps for making an eye.” Ibid.

To solve this dilemma, Reznick points to different species of a guppylike fish, some of which have no placenta and others that have “tissues that might become placentas.” However, when pressed, “Reznick admits that the [guppylike fish’s] placenta might not be as sophisticated as the mammalian placenta” [or the eye of any organism]. Ibid.

“The eye, as one of the most complex organs, has been the symbol and archetype of his [Darwin’s] dilemma. Since the eye is obviously of no use at all except in its final, complete form, how could natural selection have functioned in those initial stages of its evolution when the variations had no possible survival value? No single variation, indeed no single part, being of any use without every other, and natural selection presuming no knowledge of the ultimate end or purpose of the organ, the criterion of utility, or survival, would seem to be irrelevant. And there are other equally provoking examples of organs and processes which seem to defy natural selection. Biochemistry provides the case of chemical synthesis built up in several stages, of which the intermediate substance formed at any one stage is of no value at all, and only the end product, the final elaborate and delicate machinery, is useful—and not only useful but vital to life. How can selection, knowing nothing of the end or final purpose of this process, function when the only test is precisely that end or final purpose?” Gertrude Himmelfarb, Darwin and the Darwinian Revolution (Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1959), pp. 320–321.

c. “Of what possible use are the imperfect incipient stages of useful structures? What good is half a jaw or half a wing?” Stephen Jay Gould, “The Return of Hopeful Monsters,” p. 23.

[From “In the Beginning” by Walt Brown
http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...tml#wp1008884]
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Old 12-01-10   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pahu View Post
Why do you believe that?
Because it breaks on the drop of a hat and has poor self-repair mechanisms.

Wait, wait, let me guess; that's just God's plan, to have a lot of elderly people with replacement knees.

Quote:
Selective breeding is the use of microevolution.
There is no such thing as "microevolution"; this is a term used by Creationists. Evolution is the process of genetic change which takes place from each generation to the next. As genetic drift increases cross-breeding becomes more difficult; hence why some breeds of dogs have more difficulty having successful and viable offspring with some other breeds than their own.

Quote:
Since there are only two possible explanations for origins--evolution or creation--and evolution is proved to be false, doesn't that leave creation?
Ignoring the baffling level of idiocy in thinking you've disproved the entirety of evolution with your rambling bullshit and panopoly of links, THIS ISN'T EVEN REMOTELY HOW SCIENCE WORKS. Learn something about the shit you're trying to ape.

The only given dilemma is that you can't have A and not A at the same point in space time. Creation isn't "not evolution". Besides Darwin there's Marckian evolution; the ancient Greeks, on the other hand, believed that the world was eternal and had already existed.

And for the record, there's hundred of deep sea creature that have "half-developed eyes"; all they can sense is light or dark, not particular shapes. As these organs become more refined with time, they develop into modern eyes.

As for the accuracy of the Bible, let me destroy that with two simple questions:

1) Is slavery wrong?

2) Who was Jesus' paternal grandfather?
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Old 12-01-10   #79
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Old 12-02-10   #80
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Where is the evidence that evolution is true?
On every fucking fossil, look at us! Look at toads and tadpoles!
ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL!!?!?!?!?!?!?
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