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Old 07-10-05   #1
John Preston
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Pollution Ahoy

You know how often people say that if you look really closely at a Human they get worse and worse looking as you get closer?(This is due to noticing the asymmetrical aspects of our bodies)

Well as I look closer and closer at the US Government I get more and more disgusted.

What is it this time?

Oh, only how Bush is butchering our environment.
Clear Skies Act failed to get through. It would've made it so pollution was far more capable(Yay smog and acid rain!).
It didn't make it through, no(Because of 7 democrats and 2 independent or republicans versus 9 republicans).

Bush then took some of the stuff from the Clear Skies Act and shoved it into the EPA. Thus he simply went around the governmental system to get what he wanted.


Then I read about that Healthy Forest Initiative, which will make it so that logging companies can chop down trees more so than they currently can. This is to "help reduce forest fires".
Scientific investigations have found that this will promote forest fires and generate wildfire woes.
Yay!
Of course, there was also the Kyoto thing which would've helped to put a semi-cap on the emissions, thus making it so global warming would decrease and/or cease.
Bush didn't want to do that.

Or how about that while Bush was governer of Texas it became one of the most polluted states in the country, and that Bush(While governor) was 49th out of 50 in the environmental aspect of money giving.
Or how about how the person who got 50th was then hired by Bush to be the EPA boss.

Oh, I know...how about the fact that Bush wanted the Patriot Act 2 to decrease the amount of laws relating to dumping of pollutive material by major industries? Because, you know...that helps combat terrorism.
Like how Bush didn't give the okay to increase security at a power plant two hours away from me which has some of the worst security for any power plant in the world.


Yeah.

Thanks Bush.
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Old 07-10-05   #2
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bush is fucking everything up.
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Old 07-10-05   #3
syphilis
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Don't only blame the government for pollution. It's not the government that forces you to drive a car and spread toxic gasses in air that screws up the ozone.

Americans have always been the biggest polluter in the world regardless if the Democrats or Republicans are in charge.
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Old 07-10-05   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syphilis
Don't only blame the government for pollution. It's not the government that forces you to drive a car and spread toxic gasses in air that screws up the ozone.

Americans have always been the biggest polluter in the world regardless if the Democrats or Republicans are in charge.
a) the government does play a very large role in the pollution problem. especially as of late.
b) bush is responsible for the tearing down of forests as of late too.
c) bush is just a fucktard who continues to fuck up all he does.


as for the forest fires issue, forest fires occur naturally without fuel. trees die due to age, heat, whatever and lightning is often responsible for sparking fires, which are sometimes good for the forests. fires tend to burn the dead trees and enrich the soil with ash, promoting fresh new growth.
its better they happen without human interaction.
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Old 07-10-05   #5
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i'm with syphillis on this one... well, at least concerning people and the issue..

everyone likes to blame someone else (why not the government...that's a new concept, eh?) when shit looks bad.
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Old 07-10-05   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet.....
i'm with syphillis on this one... well, at least concerning people and the issue..

everyone likes to blame someone else (why not the government...that's a new concept, eh?) when shit looks bad.
oh i totally agree that anyone who drives is to blame as well.

and anyone who uses anything aerosol. etc etc.

while we are at it why dont we blame every human and animal that passes gas? thats all methane as well that also depletes the ozone layer.

im not totally blaming the government. but i am saying bush has some blame, hell im sure several of the presidents do.
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Old 07-10-05   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilywhitemm
a) the government does play a very large role in the pollution problem. especially as of late.
b) bush is responsible for the tearing down of forests as of late too.
c) bush is just a fucktard who continues to fuck up all he does.
Only governments with the communist systems have total control of the industry, it's not the fault of government that a company buys a piece of land and has to cut down all the trees to build a new factory.

And if trees needs to be cut down to prevent forest fires then they need to go, if you can cut down 100 trees to prevent 1000 to burn down then whats the problem?



Quote:
Originally Posted by lilywhitemm
as for the forest fires issue, forest fires occur naturally without fuel. trees die due to age, heat, whatever and lightning is often responsible for sparking fires,
Still, most of the forest fires are created by man. Either by some idiot that makes a camp fire or a pyromantic nutcase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilywhitemm
which are sometimes good for the forests. fires tend to burn the dead trees and enrich the soil with ash, promoting fresh new growth.
its better they happen without human interaction.
So when is good for a forest to burn to ashes?
Of course it fertilize but remember it takes many years for a tree to grow back.
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Old 07-10-05   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syphilis
Only governments with the communist systems have total control of the industry, it's not the fault of government that a company buys a piece of land and has to cut down all the trees to build a new factory.

And if trees needs to be cut down to prevent forest fires then they need to go, if you can cut down 100 trees to prevent 1000 to burn down then whats the problem?



Still, most of the forest fires are created by man. Either by some idiot that makes a camp fire or a pyromantic nutcase.

So when is good for a forest to burn to ashes?
Of course it fertilize but remember it takes many years for a tree to grow back.
but thats not whats happening. they DONT cut down 100 trees to save 1000. they cut down thousands of trees or more. why? not to save trees but to build businesses and the like. im all for controlled burns and even cutting down trees for use, as long as theyre being replaced with saplings. but 9 times out of 10 thats not what happens.

believe it or not, most fires in forests are actally caused by lightning. a few cases have been campfires, and only on a rare occasion or 2 has it been from a pyro. fire caused by lightning is fairly common tho.

well its better for a piece of forest to burn naturally. but as i said above, im fine with some forest being cut down so long as its replanted with saplings and not touched again for a long period of time. the problem is man is greedy and doesnt like to fucking wait. mankind has always been a creature of immediate gratification.
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Old 07-10-05   #9
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Most all forest fires are started by lightning.... it is only a small amount that are started by man.... though the ones started by man can sometimes be the worst this is not always the case.....

I fought the 1987 string of forest fires in California including a 45,000 acre fire in Six Rivers which was started by several lightning strikes.... forest fires every year add a whole bunch of particles to the air..... i would say that only maybe 20% of all forest fires are started by man.... the rest are started by natural causes.... in 1987 several hundred fires were started by lightning strikes all throughout California..... I survived the Six Rivers fire....
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Old 07-10-05   #10
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Yes, let us not blame the government for how we drive vehicles that emit nasty fumes and so on and so forth, when the government hasn't helped with bringing about hydrogen based vehicles, with how conspiracy theories relating to said hydrogen engines have been proven(Thank you GM for finally coming out), the government hasn't assisted with public transportation systems, the government hasn't forced better systems of emission handling on the car industry, and the government hasn't helped people find jobs in a local area(Trust me on that one).
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Old 07-11-05   #11
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I know plenty of people that take the bus.
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Old 07-11-05   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet.....
I know plenty of people that take the bus.
it must be nice to have a bus system...however there are many places that don't have any sort of public transportation system in place, and do have to travel at least ten miles, usually more to work...like jp, i know about that, i have to travel fifteen, if they had more affordable and reasonable fuel efficient vehicles they could get off the fossil fuel rollercoaster, but then that would be detrimental to the many "oil barons" in the country, are most of them texans?

to be an environmentalist or not to be, that's one of the hardest questions...

live trees don't burn so easily, it's dead trees and the brush that's so common on a forest floor that burns. So if it's allowing the lumber industry to cut down healthy trees and using that as an excuse, i don't buy it, it's just an excuse for the greedy business men to make more money...but on the same hand i see how necessary a logging industry is for towns, and in their defense(the logging industry)i have seen the changes they have consciously made to assure future growth...their jobs depend on it, and they're now realizing that...so in addition to planting seedlings, they do also clear unneccesary debris that can enrage a forest fire...and i've seen the marks that show what trees are cutable and which ones are not...and i've seen how healthy places that have burned grow back.

"Only governments with the communist systems have total control of the industry, it's not the fault of government that a company buys a piece of land and has to cut down all the trees to build a new factory."

but it is the governments fault if those businesses are allowed to dump toxic, polluting chemicals into the environment, destroying the natural habitat in a much more devastating way than clearing a few acres for a new building. Until cooperations start taking the average person into consideration, they do need some sort of check and balance to make sure they are not...destroying an irreplacable habitat...they pass laws that prevent people from doing anything about it themselves...while not passing any laws to assist the company in taking a bit more responsibility for their actions?

or is the government only to rule and control the average citizen that can't afford to donate thousands of dollars to their campaigns?

either way, the environment does need help, there are people attempting to correct the problems from years of pollution, but until there's more money and more global assistance for nature...it's just a handful of people trying to save a big world that's more geared for the greedy businessman with lots of money, than the average joe schmoe working difficult jobs at a meneal wage for a living.

ignorance isn't an excuse anymore...the governments know full well that nature is in danger...but do most really care about anything beyond their own pocketbook?
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Old 07-11-05   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syphilis
Still, most of the forest fires are created by man. Either by some idiot that makes a camp fire or a pyromantic nutcase.

So when is good for a forest to burn to ashes?
Of course it fertilize but remember it takes many years for a tree to grow back.
As stated by others.. Most ForestFires are started by lightning strikes.. It's commonly known..

When is it good for a forest to burn?? I have held a redcard for many, many years.. It means that i am trained and qualified to fight wildfires (forestfires to you ) and i currently have qualifications for squadboss and crew leader.. This means I AM Responsible for the lives of the people under me on the fireline..

Back in the 50's, The government/EPA(the version then) decided that we needed 100% suppresion of wildfires.. In the late 70's to mid 80's they realised thier folly..
Most of the national parklands had choked oldgrowth that were deteriorating rapidly.. There was NO new growth of the types of trees that were dying off. The Old growth trees could not survive a fire that raged past them, They had been weakened by the closely packed trees. the density had weakened all of them, and even the new growth did not survive in most cases...

Then some dimwit got it through to the knuckleheads in DC that they were wrong about it! They started thinning out the new growth that was choking off the old growth.. But leaving deadfall that already existed in the areas. Then, after a few seasons, when a fire would start, they let it burn! (the other extreme ) But the results were dramatic.. The old growth trees survives.. The ground was laid bare by it, and the new growth were the rarer trees that they had hoped would grow if they prevented and burning.. And, it turned out that the forest grew back quicker, amazingly quicker, than it had before.. In less than 2 seasons, the old growth was recovering, growing new bark to hide the scars.. And the new growth was springing up strong and quick...

Nowadays.. they only do control burns for thinning out areas that are starting to become a hazard to residential neighborhoods. They keep the firebreaks clear. And They don't stop the fires, they watch them and see what the best plan of attack is.. I.E. Where to build the lines around the fire so that the burn is stopped or slowed for the best results in manpower, fuel removal, and (thank [insert deity of choice] ) the safety of the fire crews.. As well as growth preservation..


Sorry, this subject has deep meaning to me..

*end of rant*
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Old 07-11-05   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syphilis
Don't only blame the government for pollution. It's not the government that forces you to drive a car and spread toxic gasses in air that screws up the ozone.

Americans have always been the biggest polluter in the world regardless if the Democrats or Republicans are in charge.


That's true, people have a choice of their own
However, the government could do something to help move people out of their cars and into for instance public transport.
I have no idea how this is in the usa, but in this country, public transport is almost more expensive as it is to drive a car.
So why don't they make that cheaper....or free (like in some parts of Belgium, people really did move to public transport since this is free and cars cost money)
I always use the bus, I don't drive at all (or I carpool)

And also, what's with bullshit sports like Formula 1 racing etc.....nice to watch cars drive around fumigating the air and polluting....
I don't see the joy in it.

Too many people still are also too lazy to recycle, or to check out furniture brands etc, to see what kind of wood is used....if we don't buy those tropical rainforest wooden things, they won't cut down so many....
Or is that too simple?
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Old 07-11-05   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Preston
Yes, let us not blame the government for how we drive vehicles that emit nasty fumes and so on and so forth, when the government hasn't helped with bringing about hydrogen based vehicles, with how conspiracy theories relating to said hydrogen engines have been proven(Thank you GM for finally coming out), the government hasn't assisted with public transportation systems, the government hasn't forced better systems of emission handling on the car industry, and the government hasn't helped people find jobs in a local area(Trust me on that one).
The problem with that is the fact that we don't have the technology to make hydrogen fuel cells effeicient or equitable enough for every day use. Even GM has admitted to the fact that its still a long ways off. Yes putting some money towards the research would be a good idea, but putting most of the money towards mass transit, and fuel and emission efficient engines would be the most feasible corse of action for now. Hell the U.S. is third largest country in the world both in land area and population. We have all this open space, yet we do not have and efficient nation wide mass transit system. We have the space for it. We have a huge railroad network already established, and rail transportation of goods is rapidly declining thanks to the trucking industry. Why not just take most of it down for good, or transition it to high speed trains? Because it would take away from the oil industry. Those fucks have a vice grip on the balls of the U.S. government, and they ain't about to let go.
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Old 07-12-05   #16
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I find one of the problems with vehicles is that most folks, especially here in utah, won't ride public transportation.. Although there are some cities in the us where more people ride public transit than drive..

Me? I don't own a car.. i take the bus/train or walk.. Walking in 100 degree weather sucks tho...
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Old 07-12-05   #17
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I know that. Its funny to see Larry Miller endorsing UTA though.
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Old 07-12-05   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darktiggr
I find one of the problems with vehicles is that most folks, especially here in utah, won't ride public transportation.. Although there are some cities in the us where more people ride public transit than drive..

Me? I don't own a car.. i take the bus/train or walk.. Walking in 100 degree weather sucks tho...
i loved riding the bus, and in chicago their double decker metro was amazingly fun and fast, not as educational the the subway however.

...but the places i'm living, and returning to have no public transportation, one little bus that drives between the towns once a week, doesn't exactly qualify.
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Old 07-12-05   #19
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For every milion dollars the US government could spend on alternative fuels we could be one year closer to a viable source..... of course they would rather build better missiles and bigger bombs and faster planes and tougher tanks and........ stupid fuckwits......
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Old 07-12-05   #20
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they build stupid fuckwits?
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