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Old 11-22-10   #2021
Dark Messiah
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There's at least two countries in the world with more people than Europe, and more that can arguably claim greater ethnic and linguistic diversity.

Still, you have most of a good point, although Europe isn't actually a continent, just a lick of land in western Asia with cultural pretensions.
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Old 11-22-10   #2022
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When did I say that Europe had greater ethnic or linguistic diversity? I didn't say anything of the kind. I said that mindsets greatly differ amongst the different European countries. That's a fact. You can think it's not but you'd be wrong.

Your latter point is an attempt to be funny, I assume. Your humor is about as effective as ear candling.
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Old 11-22-10   #2023
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Originally Posted by Wicked Lady View Post
When did I say that Europe had greater ethnic or linguistic diversity? I didn't say anything of the kind. I said that mindsets greatly differ amongst the different European countries. That's a fact. You can think it's not but you'd be wrong.

Your latter point is an attempt to be funny, I assume. Your humor is about as effective as ear candling.
I'm pretty sure he just agreed with you and retracted his statement in his own DMish way...
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Old 11-22-10   #2024
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Really? I can never tell. It always reads like "my penis small but dammit! my intellect is huuuuge".
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Old 11-22-10   #2025
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I was saying that while your point had some validity, it made several erroneous assumptions, mainly that a single country can't be diverse (China, India, Russia, the US and Indonesia all have hugely diverse populations), and that Europe is a continent (it's not).

I mean you might as well take umbrage with the idea that all Americans can be classified the same way as Europeans. Not everywhere in the US is Alabama.

Also, my penis is like five hundred feet long.
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Old 11-23-10   #2026
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Ok my mistake, you were right, Wicked.

And I'm pretty sure Europe is a continent... or it is considered as such in all geography courses I've ever received. It may not be its own land mass...
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Old 11-23-10   #2027
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Europe is frequently classified as a continent. Jessica Simpson is frequently classified as a musician. That isn't to say that these things are so. Europe isn't a continent because there's no definition you can attach to the word "continent" that includes Europe without creating numerous other such "continents" out of thin air.

Other than the contorted, as in; "A large and contiguous landmass surrounded entirely or almost entirely by water or the Ural Mountains.

Europe was grandfathered in because of cultural/racial pretensions and the geographic misconceptions of the ancients, by which standard water should still be an element.
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Old 11-23-10   #2028
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So because you disagree with the accepted facts they're simply not true? Wow. Deluded much?
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Old 11-23-10   #2029
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No, "accepted facts" are or are not true on the basis of whether or not they're true. Although I suppose it doesn't hurt that Europe's classification as a continent is not an "accepted fact", but an assertion very much contested by numerous scholars and cartographers.

However, were the Urals to invert tomorrow and create something arguably like an actual continent (although Europe would still have a very large land border with the rest of Asia), it wouldn't mean that large countries like the US, Indonesia, India, etc., don't have very large and diverse populations and opinions, and it wouldn't mean that large areas and populations couldn't share common sentiments about certain topics. So statements like this;

Quote:
I think it's a bit ridiculous to say America and Europe. Ideas differ amongst European nations, even generally. Yes, in America the majority of people you ask will say Iranians are terrorist scum. Not so in Europe. The ideals vary greatly. If you were to ask a Dutch guy you'd receive a different answer than from a Frenchie. I think it's indicative of the major superiority complex that you would compare an entire continent made up of multiple countries to a single country.
Aren't well grounded. Generalizing any large population is difficult, but it's not really that important if it's classified as a country, a region, a continent or subcontinent or whatever for these purposes.
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Old 11-23-10   #2030
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I wonder if DM has an friends IRL? I honestly dont know how anyone could stand to be around you for more than 10 minutes at a stretch.
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Old 11-24-10   #2031
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Originally Posted by thefr0g View Post
I wonder if DM has an friends IRL? I honestly dont know how anyone could stand to be around you for more than 10 minutes at a stretch.
I have such security in my rl friendships, in fact, that I don't feel compelled to suck on Wicked's balls in order to gain a sense of acceptance.

Alternate answer: My friends are educated and can hold a conversation without crying about how it's unfair to use technical terms for things, or to have read a book on a subject at some point in my life.
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Last edited by Dark Messiah; 11-24-10 at 02:41.
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Old 11-24-10   #2032
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I "suck wicked's balls" because she's the only person on this forum that I like as a human being, and if the place were to disappear tomorrow, she's the only person I'd care to continue talking to outside of it. If you think I, or anyone for that matter, comes to darkforum.com for acceptance, you're delusional.

I have a friend like you. The guy that starts 90% of his sentences with "aaaaactually" and loves nothing more to say contrary bullshit everytime someone brings up a point. If I say the sky is blue, he'll be "aaaaactually its a more of a light-hued periwinkle". I remain friends with the guy because we've got a lot of history, but yet there are times when I can barely stand the insufferable prick.

Basically what happened is that Wicked shot you down when you lumped all of Europe and America into one basket and called you out on your superiority complex. I'm guessing this embarrassed you, because you probably see the American superiority complex all the time, but thought yourself above it. So in your embarrassment you diverted the issue to semantics so you could feel better about yourself again.
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Old 11-24-10   #2033
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Europe not being a continent is semantics. The idea that Americans can all have one idea about something because it's one country, and Europeans can't because they're a regional group of countries, and that thinking otherwise is wrong and an "American superiority complex" is not. It's just kind of dumb and part of projecting the kind of European superiority complex that makes you think a lick of land with a two thousand mile land border with Asia is a "continent", hence why I enjoy tweaking people about the latter.

I can't claim to be as hardcore as you, fr0g. I like you and Wicked and Lenina and even Sixgun and Billy and Iron and really almost all of the old regular irregulars.

But at the end of the day, I realize that your objections are bullshit and you basically just don't like when I point out that you're wrong about something, or I guess, empathically, Wicked; you're not stepping in threads here to defend Pahu or Dyshade from my dastardly contrarianism.
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Last edited by Dark Messiah; 11-24-10 at 08:48.
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Old 11-24-10   #2034
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I'm not even defending wicked, just agreeing with her. I started this bullshit out trying to defend YOU.
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Old 11-24-10   #2035
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Well, why do you agree with Wicked's position? Mind, I've already said that there's some validity to her point; certainly very large populations and regions are harder to generalize about than smaller ones, particularly when there's a great deal of cultural diversity. And it certainly sounds reasonable that there would be a greater diversity of opinions about Iran within Europe than in America.

But the other half of her argument I do find problems with. There's not a clear hierarchy of diversity from country to region; the United States is a very large country, with the third largest land mass and the third largest population in the world. To the concept of such a divide generally, India and China are countries with populations larger than Europe; the Philippines or Indonesia contain much greater ethnic and linguistic diversity than the entirety of Europe within smaller populations. The United States has a larger population than several regions of the world, including Central Asia and the most common definitions of the Middle East; a vastly larger population than Oceania, for instance. Australia is both a country and a continent, but it has a relatively small population, and not a particularly diverse one on the whole.

So in regards to this statement:

Quote:
I think it's a bit ridiculous to say America and Europe. Ideas differ amongst European nations, even generally. Yes, in America the majority of people you ask will say Iranians are terrorist scum. Not so in Europe. The ideals vary greatly. If you were to ask a Dutch guy you'd receive a different answer than from a Frenchie. I think it's indicative of the major superiority complex that you would compare an entire continent made up of multiple countries to a single country.
While it may be true of opinions on Iran, is not categorically true, and it's not a superiority complex to think that Europe and America are comparable things; they are, especially if by Europe we mean the EU, which we very often do. In population the gap there is 5:3 and shrinking; in terms of economy, the gap is much smaller. Geographically the US is larger. Linguistically, Europe is more diverse, but ethnically, the United States is. There are issues, such as the death penalty or climate change, where there's a much greater diversity of thought in the US than in Europe (whether for good or bad). Even more so outside of Eastern Europe, which make up recent and largely impoverished entrants to the community.

The tl;dr being that yes, it's dangerous to generalize, especially when referring to a population measured in the hundreds of millions, but sometimes the generalization is valid. WL may have been right on this particular issue (I really don't know), but if that is on a basis of, "Europe is a continent and the US a country, so the US can have one opinion and Europe has to have a diversity of opinions", that's a very weak foundation indeed. Especially given that the 'continent' in this case is well on its way to being a single country anyway; one supposes that people within the EU aren't going to stop having different opinions overnight as the integration process moves onwards.
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Old 11-24-10   #2036
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I'm not going to bother defending my position. Even if you're wrong you won't admit it because you can't be wrong. I think fr0g hit you too close to home. Of course you're now welcome to type your inevitable novel about whatever you've decided is wrong this time.
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Old 11-24-10   #2037
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Until you've either lived out of the country or spent a LOT of time with someone who has, you don't understand how the things you take for granted as an American make you look to the rest of the world. After a few years of fighting it, I've begun to question my whole American Identity because of the time I've spent with an actual European. I'm not kidding man, it fucks with your head.

Generalizing statements like that make you look like an ignorant American, no matter how much text you use to defend them.
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Old 11-24-10   #2038
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Oh, really? You think that makes me look "an ignorant American" to all Europeans? How dreadfully generalizing of you.

I in fact already admitted that Wicked might be right on this issue; I may have rushed to a generalization of European opinions on Iran. Certainly most of the European opinions I've read on the subject lean the same way (Iran as a threat), but that pool is tainted by the fact that I'm reading mainly English-language press.

The irony comes in the form of using this to indulge in the EU national past time of America-bashing. It makes as much sense to generalize about American ignorance/arrogance for generalizing all Europeans as it does to complain that all white people are racist or are all men are sexist.

And then, of course, on top of that, drawing a laughable distinction that countries can't hold a diversity of opinions (no matter how large in population), whereas large regions can never have their opinions generalized (even when there are plenty of issues that the vast majority of Europeans agree on).

And for the record, almost 10% of my school are international students, and my major is international affairs. I'm far more familiar with world opinion than the average European, who will bitch about American arrogance while knowing jack shit about any part of the world outside of Europe, America and maybe Japan.

So to sum up: Wicked, who complains all the time that I start annoying and pedantic arguments, started an annoying and pedantic argument in which she did the exact thing she was bitching about (generalizing a very large population). fr0g, who loves to play the intellectual nearly as much as I do, ceded his intelligence to defend Wicked's point because... I don't know. Some Europeans made him feel bad once it sounds like.

This argument is ridiculous. You are both wrong. As evidence for this you have no argument other than, "Man, Europeans really think Americans are arrogant when you generalize."
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Old 11-24-10   #2039
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Oh, really? You think that makes me look "an ignorant American" to all Europeans? How dreadfully generalizing of you.
Didn't say that. Way to turn it around on me though, you got me good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
I in fact already admitted that Wicked might be right on this issue; I may have rushed to a generalization of European opinions on Iran. Certainly most of the European opinions I've read on the subject lean the same way (Iran as a threat), but that pool is tainted by the fact that I'm reading mainly English-language press.

The irony comes in the form of using this to indulge in the EU national past time of America-bashing. It makes as much sense to generalize about American ignorance/arrogance for generalizing all Europeans as it does to complain that all white people are racist or are all men are sexist.

And then, of course, on top of that, drawing a laughable distinction that countries can't hold a diversity of opinions (no matter how large in population), whereas large regions can never have their opinions generalized (even when there are plenty of issues that the vast majority of Europeans agree on).

And for the record, almost 10% of my school are international students, and my major is international affairs. I'm far more familiar with world opinion than the average European, who will bitch about American arrogance while knowing jack shit about any part of the world outside of Europe, America and maybe Japan.
I live in America, and have lately been realizing how we are brainwashed from a very young age to believe certain things about this country that simply aren't the case. I still love the country, I still have high hopes for the future of it, and I'll always BE an american no matter where I live. But the arrogance, and more importantly the IGNORANCE is real. Now I should add a disclaimer that when I say this I'm not necessarily referring to every single american in the country. I'm just pointing out a trend in our thinking. So before you say "ha HA YOU GENERALIZING SON OF A BITCH" realize that wasn't my intention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
So to sum up: Wicked, who complains all the time that I start annoying and pedantic arguments, started an annoying and pedantic argument in which she did the exact thing she was bitching about (generalizing a very large population). fr0g, who loves to play the intellectual nearly as much as I do, ceded his intelligence to defend Wicked's point because... I don't know. Some Europeans made him feel bad once it sounds like.
I'm married to a European, I've spent a little time there, and eventually I will no doubt be moving there. Wicked lives there currently and has for several years. But you're right your international affairs major is pretty sweet too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
This argument is ridiculous. You are both wrong. As evidence for this you have no argument other than, "Man, Europeans really think Americans are arrogant when you generalize."
Your right, and your intellectual rebuttal of what basically amounted to 1000 words saying "NUH UH!!" completely put me in my place.
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Old 11-25-10   #2040
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Wicked lives in England, which is, for all intents and purposes, America Beta.. You married a European. Yeah, somehow I'm not feeling the "God, it's so ridiculous that you think having actually studied this subject gives you an edge" angle working for you here, even were there an actual level of experience abroad that would validate the kind of claim that says Americans can be generalized and Europeans can't.

Maybe where you come from, it's really rare to know someone from another country. This is not my experience. Nor is my experience in international acquaintances limited to Western Europe, which is culturally way, way, way, way closer to the US than either side of the Atlantic wants to admit; the cultural gaps between Texas and France don't cover a fraction of that between just northern and southern India.

And yeah, you know what? You're right. You're absolutely right; the generalization that Americans are arrogant and ignorant of world affairs is absolutely well founded in fact. It's a valid generalization. That's because you can sometimes actually validly generalize even over very large and diverse populations. Which is I suppose fortunate because otherwise I wouldn't really have a major, because there'd be no way of predicting the shifts in behavior and attitudes of different government regimes in different countries as the individuals staffing each country's government came and went.

Marketing majors would also probably hate it.
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