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Old 06-26-04   #1
Duke E.
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Why Don't You Believe In/Like Christianity?

This is where I will give you my Christian answer (or will at least try my very best) to your questions and concerns about Christianity.
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Old 06-26-04   #2
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I don't give a flying whoopie about Christianity.
It's when Christian's try and force themselves on me(metaphorically speaking) that I start to hate on them.

It's like those jehovah's witnesses...
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Old 06-26-04   #3
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I do not believe in Christianity for multiple reasons:
- Their "We have an absolute monopoly on Truth" which is just plain nonsense.
- Their opposition to various areas of science (genetic research ect)
- Their opposition of using condoms as a means of controlling AIDS
- Their belief based on 2000 year old (or older) texts which cannot be verified
- Their tendency to live in the past rather then the present
- Their "holier then thou" mentality whereas history clearly can point christianity as a cause of much bloodshed
- The overall nature of the religion which defines man as an evil by nature who must be brought into submission of something good.

List goes on, but these are just a few points why I do not respect christianity.
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Old 06-26-04   #4
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The disempowering nature of the religion bothers me, also. The idea that humans are worthless in themselves and only find worth through the acceptance of the Christian God, is disgusting to me.

The Christian God is a problem too. I don't happen to believe the Christian God exists outside religious texts and the minds of people who believe in him, but the very idea of him is gross and not commensurate with a Universal Creator. Giving birth to an entire universe, then throwing a fit and flooding an entire planet...just don't go together. He is a petty, violent and vengeful monster. That's not a good being to look up to, fictional or otherwise.

Then, of course, is the idea that Christianity is the one truth. That is arrogant and reflects the lack of validity the religion has. Anyone who studies religious history would see that Christianity came from Paganism. Jesus Christ was a reinvention of earlier pagan godmen, for goodness sakes.
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Old 06-26-04   #5
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I concur with every statement made by both Vallisk and Aeternus.

Christianity makes an excellent platform to preach about the wonders of ones own self. To preach about how much better one is than another because of a belief.
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Old 06-26-04   #6
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I'm faithless, not an atheist, faithless. Atheists have faith. There's nothing any mortal, flesh and blood human being can say to make me believe what they believe about religion and spirituality. When a god, goddess, or gods, that may exist make a personal appearance to me. Then I'll follow them.
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Old 06-26-04   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeternus
I do not believe in Christianity for multiple reasons:
- Their "We have an absolute monopoly on Truth" which is just plain nonsense.
- Their opposition to various areas of science (genetic research ect)
- Their opposition of using condoms as a means of controlling AIDS
- Their belief based on 2000 year old (or older) texts which cannot be verified
- Their tendency to live in the past rather then the present
- Their "holier then thou" mentality whereas history clearly can point christianity as a cause of much bloodshed
- The overall nature of the religion which defines man as an evil by nature who must be brought into submission of something good.

List goes on, but these are just a few points why I do not respect christianity.
For the most part you seem to be judging Christianity because you don't like alot of Christians. Which I can't blame you; this was a serious issue for me before I came to the Christ on my own terms. I couldn't even get a water baptism when I was little because my parents conceived me way before they got married and hence I was a "bastard" to many "churches". That in itself destroyed alot of my parents’ faith (in God and the Body). All the stories I hear on the news and from my Mom about child molestation with Catholics made me at least skeptical. I've also been kicked out a church before just because I spoke my mind (in a polite way). Almost all Christian I had met seemed stuck up in themselves, and intelligently deficient. I'm even dealing a VERY personal struggle now of realizing some people don't pratice what they preach, but I haven't let it deter me. I have faith in my God, he will pull me through this...

But, you simply can not judge Christ and God by his imperfect followers...
This isn't neccesarily the healthiest way to look at it, but the more Holy and like Christ you become, the more hypocritical they will feel - and in turn the more likely they will change their ways.

As many have once said about things that are not religion, there are no versions of the truth. No one wants to hear "versions of the truth" from a serial killer who in the midst of the public's eye slaughtered numbers of lifes. And to REALLY believe in something, you must see it as fact and there being no other way. That's why Christians display a "monopoly of truth".

Christians oppose various areas of science for the same reason alot of Non-Christians do. It's the question of ethics. Genetic research is playing with something we still don't have the slightest grasp yet. Even when you get effects that could be considered somewhat desireable, you also tend to get the effects that are definitely not. It seems kind of petty when you are taking about tomatoes and potatoes, it becomes a huge issue when are talkng about animal and human life.

Say for example, though genetics people create a child that is tall, black haired, attrative boy from short, blond, ugly parents (I'm not saying tall height or being black-haired is a benefit). Though the boy is tall and attractive, and black-haired he doesn't stop growing, his bone structure is weak. His immune system is very acceptable to disease, and because of it dies the age of 21. Is this right? I surly don't believe so.

Or take Dolly (the first cloned sheep), she seemed like a huge success at first, but when she aged VERY fast and died extremely prematurely people became very skeptical all of a sudden. She was cloned from a six year old animal, she only lived to be six years old while sheep usually live to be around 12. Cloning as serious effects and porblems, and frankly is a dangerous idea.

Even one tiny strand of DNA is incrediably complex, and as human beings it is not our right to ingorantly be mad scientists fiddling around with what me never understand in this earthy life.

The simple deal with genetic research and cloning, is people are trying to play God. In all seriousness, that's quite a scary thought. People are corrupt, wicked creatures. Even alot non-Christians disagree with the idea of people playing God... it's not just a matter of being Christian or not.

I don't know what type of verification you want, but the Old Testament is as accurate as it was during Jesus's time. We know this from the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And if you belive in Christ like I do you'd trust him when he said in his human lifetime that all texts of the Old Testament are completely and 100% God's word. Plus there are great many things in this earthly world that can be verified with human methods. Can it be verified where you go when you die even? Can it be verfied how big this universe really is? Can it be verified how old this universe is? In the eyes of a doubt, everything is false and everything is fiction.

A true Christian should live in the future and not in the present. It's all about forgetting about the sinful past, and not being worried about this earthyl life because you await a perfect eternal one. No one should live in the past, Christian or not - it's simply not healthy. If you see Christians doing this, is not a mark of Christianity, but mark of their imperfectness as a human being.

I don't agree with bloodshed for religion just as much as you don't. No one should ever claim they are better than you because they are Christian, they are not. All people are created equal, and are no more special than you. Only God has the right to judge the wrongs of this world anyway...and if the "Christians" who caused bloodshed realized this one simple ideal, they realize thier hypocrisy. I would never defend my Christian brothers or sisters when they are clearly in the wrong.

Man is not evil by nature, at least he wasn't. Adam had not a trace of evil in before sin. Sin is evil by nature, not human beings. But since we live a world full of immorality and sin, it is impossible to avoid and impossible not to commit. The Father realizes the the power of sin, and forgives us for it through the death of his own Son. If you find someone who hasn't committed a sin by the laws of the Bible, let me know I'd love to meet him (would be Jesus again).

Peace, Grace, Love, and Wisdom be with you all...

Last edited by Duke E.; 06-26-04 at 12:43.
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Old 06-26-04   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallisk
The disempowering nature of the religion bothers me, also. The idea that humans are worthless in themselves and only find worth through the acceptance of the Christian God, is disgusting to me.

The Christian God is a problem too. I don't happen to believe the Christian God exists outside religious texts and the minds of people who believe in him, but the very idea of him is gross and not commensurate with a Universal Creator. Giving birth to an entire universe, then throwing a fit and flooding an entire planet...just don't go together. He is a petty, violent and vengeful monster. That's not a good being to look up to, fictional or otherwise.

Then, of course, is the idea that Christianity is the one truth. That is arrogant and reflects the lack of validity the religion has. Anyone who studies religious history would see that Christianity came from Paganism. Jesus Christ was a reinvention of earlier pagan godmen, for goodness sakes.
People are not worthless in the eyes of my God. EVERYONE has great worth, even if you are NOT Christian! But People can not be saved from this horrible, sinful world in any other way, but through my God.

We are in the image of God, and we have many of the emotions of God, but not to the same degree. God can be quite wrathful, but it always has great reason (unlike us) that we as simple human beings can not understand.

He flooded the planet because it was essentially destorying itself. He did it to take it out of his misery in the same way someone might shoot a dog that was dying/suffering. He shot the suffering dog so a new puppy could be born. He didn't destroy everything, Adam, Eve, and Satan did. He was fixing things, not destroying. He didn't give up humans or this planet because of what happened,the flood was another chance.

Most non-Christians tend to be Evolutionists so I ask this question. Is it more wretched to just wipe all of life just once and try again of the sake of purity, or have several periods of mass excintinction as evolution claims. Evolution is violent, vengeful monster, not God. Survival of the fittest and all that. A loving God would never allow that.

It seems all of you have put your faith in unforgiving, unloving god.

My God is a loving, forgiving being that is very good to look up to...

Last edited by Duke E.; 06-26-04 at 12:56.
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Old 06-26-04   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyshade
I concur with every statement made by both Vallisk and Aeternus.

Christianity makes an excellent platform to preach about the wonders of ones own self. To preach about how much better one is than another because of a belief.
Christianity does NOT preach that one is any better than other because of a belief. Beliefing in Christinity is simply accepting God's offer to Salvation, which EVERYONE is offered. No one can earn Salvation....
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Old 06-26-04   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synikul
I'm faithless, not an atheist, faithless. Atheists have faith. There's nothing any mortal, flesh and blood human being can say to make me believe what they believe about religion and spirituality. When a god, goddess, or gods, that may exist make a personal appearance to me. Then I'll follow them.
Sadly, that's exactly what it took to get me to believe... God made a personal appearance to me. The truth is God is all around us though, even when he don't think he is. If you call for him, he is there. I can't say he will come to you in the same way he came to me, but he will answer and he is there. Make a prayer and God will answer it, though it might not happen in the timing that you would expect.

Peace, Grace, Love, and Wisdom be with you all...
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Old 06-26-04   #11
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I hope you all can at least see, I did not go in this religion blindly and without answering alot doubt. It was quite a long and strenous struggle. I tend not to believe in things without finding some sort of proof either, and I hope all of you find yours. There is Truth if you go and look for it. God bless...
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Old 06-26-04   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Preston
I don't give a flying whoopie about Christianity.
It's when Christian's try and force themselves on me(metaphorically speaking) that I start to hate on them.

It's like those jehovah's witnesses...
I'm sorry you feel that way about Christianity, but because they love you and don't want to see you persih is why they "force themselves" on you. It's hard to see someone walking in the path to hell. I wish that on no man myself, no matter who it is....

Peace, Grace, Love, and Wisdom be with you...
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Old 06-26-04   #13
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i'll answer this by taking quotes and just kinda commenting.
Quote:
Their "We have an absolute monopoly on Truth" which is just plain nonsense.
i'm not insinuating anything, but just consider the fact that despite what we believe in our limited capacities, the truth is what it is, and it's one thing (though controversial it is). perhaps some of us are closer to understanding it. it's the christian assertation of knowing that what they proclaim is truth that bothers you, am i right?
Quote:
Their belief based on 2000 year old (or older) texts which cannot be verified
i'm not shoving the bible in your face by any means, but i've found that some parts of that book have good advice. i won't just toss it aside, that's for sure.
Quote:
Their "holier then thou" mentality whereas history clearly can point christianity as a cause of much bloodshed
funny but christ never acted "holier than thou". that's where christians go wrong.
Quote:
The overall nature of the religion which defines man as an evil by nature who must be brought into submission of something good.
i think the original intention was to depict man as something subject to evil, but not evil by nature (though, i know, most christians don't see it that way).
Quote:
Christianity makes an excellent platform to preach about the wonders of ones own self. To preach about how much better one is than another because of a belief.
yea they do that, though that's the opposite of what Jesus asked them to do in their texts.
Quote:
But, you simply can not judge Christ and God by his imperfect followers...
quotable, at the least.
Quote:
And if you belive in Christ like I do you'd trust him when he said in his human lifetime that all texts of the Old Testament are completely and 100% God's word.
hmm. well you can grab any book with commandments from any particular entity of figurehead and decide to just accept them with no lee way.
what makes people stick by the bible 100%, in my book, isn't always well considered. if God told me that was truth, i'd accept it in a hearbeat. he has me listening for that right now.
just a mind opening tidbit my man. if you feel God said it's true, have at it, and put a request in for me.
Quote:
A true Christian should live in the future and not in the present.
i think you mean to emphasize the wisdom of living anywhere but the past. the present is a great place to put your focus, as is the future.


i guess i'm trying to say that i have no stance on christianity except that i find it pointless. you don't and we've rambled till we were blue in the face.

the ultimate point though, and duke and i agree on this, is that the people don't reflect God. he's his own entity and only capable of being understood through personal interaction.
that's something only an individual can accomplish within his/herself.
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Old 06-26-04   #14
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What can I say, but Surreal answered alot of the same questions but with briefer, perhaps better answers. He is full of wisdom, and we both share the same God. If you refuse to listen to me, try and listen to him...
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Old 06-26-04   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke E.
For the most part you seem to be judging Christianity because you don't like alot of Christians. Which I can't blame you; this was a serious issue for me before I came to the Christ on my own terms. I couldn't even get a water baptism when I was little because my parents conceived me way before they got married and hence I was a "bastard." That in itself destroyed alot of my parents’ faith (in God and the Body). All the stories I hear on the news and from my Mom about child molestation with Catholics made me at least skeptical. I've also been kicked out a church before just because I spoke my mind (in a polite way). Almost all Christian I had met seemed stuck up in themselves, and intelligently deficient.
And are being kept so by those that rule that religion, and by it's rules itself... The constrained form of religion such as existant in christianity is a spiritual deadend to me.
Quote:
But, you simply can not judge Christ and God by his imperfect followers...
This isn't neccesarily the healthiest way to look at it, but the more Holy and like Christ you become, the more hypocritical they will feel - and in turn the more likely they will change their ways.
I'll judge a religion by it's manifestations. The effect it has on it's followers. Imperfection lays in submitting to what is an illusion.
Quote:
As many have once said about things that are not religion, there are no versions of the truth. No one wants to hear "versions of the truth" from a serial killer who in the midst of the public's eye slaughtered numbers of lifes. And to REALLY believe in something, you must see it as fact and there being no other way. That's why Christians display a "monopoly of truth".
And that kind of stubborn closedmindedness is making conversation with one almost impossible. They cannot see another's point of view since they cannot believe another form of spirituality can be good. They are as intolerant as they claim the muslim religion to be at heart.
Quote:
Christians oppose various areas of science for the same reason alot of Non-Christians do. It's the question of ethics. Genetic research is playing with something we still don't have the slightest grasp yet. Even when you get effects that could be considered somewhat desireable, you also tend to get the effects that are definitely not. It seems kind of petty when you are taking about tomatoes and potatoes, it becomes a huge issue when are talkng about animal and human life.
Does it? Does the christian religion really oppose taking humanity beyond itself? Eradication of all hereditary diseases lays within our grasp, in the completion of genetic research and treatment. Such diseases will become more common with radiation increasing random mutations, as well as the failing of natural selection within the human race. Artificial implants can replace limbs, restore eyesight and provide hearing for the deaf. Donor organs can replace faulty ones. IV fertilisation can provide children for couples who cannot. All these things the church opposes. All these things I see as a benefit for mankind. Thus, your church opposes things beneficial for mankind.
Quote:
Say for example, though genetics people create a child that is tall, black haired, attrative boy from short, blond, ugly parents (I'm not saying tall height or being black-haired is a benefit). Though the boy is tall and attractive, and black-haired he doesn't stop growing, his bone structure is weak. His immune system is very acceptable to disease, and because of it dies the age of 21. Is this right? I surly don't believe so.
No, it is not. But that would be improper use of the genetic engineering. Correct use would be to increase the efectiveness of the immune system and regulate the growing patterns to cease growth at the age of 18, like most people. Perhaps even increase the strength of his bonestructure ('though that is largely determined by nutritional intake - food).
Quote:
Or take Dolly (the first cloned sheep), she seemed like a huge success at first, but when she aged VERY fast and died extremely prematurely people became very skeptical all of a sudden. She was cloned from a six year old animal, she only lived to be six years old while sheep usually live to be around 12. Cloning as serious effects and porblems, and frankly is a dangerous idea.
First attempts often fail. I would assume the first belltower collapsed as well, before people learned how to build stronger walls, and better foundations. Cloning is a new science, which deals with life itself. I can understand that a scientist playing god makes religious people uneasy... If a human can play god, what does that make a god after all?
And that is exactly why I do not like the constraints religion tries to put onto science. It is our best bet at disproving the notion that this god of yours is more then we can become.
Quote:
Even one tiny strand of DNA is incrediably complex, and as human beings it is not our right to ingorantly be mad scientists fiddling around with what me never understand in this earthy life.
Beautiful... The same will have been said about fire, or the wheel, or the combustion engine. Or sailors who would venture too far onto open ocean... Risking "falling off the edge".
It is our RIGHT to discover EVERYTHING there is to know of the world that surrounds us and of ourselves. Isn't it written somewhere in that bible of yours that god gave this world to us humans? That includes the molecules of DNA...
And complexity... 50 years ago calculating prime numbers composed of hundreds of digits would have been unthinkable. Nowadays we have things called computers for that. Nothing is too complex forever.
Quote:
The simple deal with genetic research and cloning, is people are trying to play God. In all seriousness, that's quite a scary thought. People are corrupt, wicked creatures. Even alot non-Christians disagree with the idea of people playing God... it's not just a matter of being Christian or not.
Wether you play god yourself or claim to lay down "His" law... it is the same concept. Corruption doesn't exclude churches or bibles...
Quote:
I don't know what type of verification you want, but the Old Testament is as accurate as it was during Jesus's time. We know this from the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. And if you belive in Christ like I do you'd trust him when he said in his human lifetime that all texts of the Old Testament are completely and 100% God's word. Plus there are great many things in this earthly world that can be verified with human methods. Can it be verified where you go when you die even? Can it be verfied how big this universe really is? Can it be verified how old this universe is? In the eyes of a doubt, everything is false and everything is fiction.
You put absolute truth in a cult leader who existed 2000 years ago, and documents dating from that era... That is your choice. Do not try and force that choice on others however.
Can it be verified where you go when one dies? Not as of yet... Current methods of detecting and tracing what you call the "soul" are insufficient and met with scepsis. There is at present no proof where that goes after the death of the physical body. It would not surprise me however if research into the human brain will lead to methods to discover and detect where conciousness resides. I'm sure that the churches will throw a fit again, considering how opposed they are to science discovering the secrets of the human body... once we start researching the soul...
In the eyes of doubt everything is to be questioned and researched. Everything can be true and false and is both until proben otherwise. If that's a concept too abstract for you then I can understand why you retreat into dogma's. Saves you from thinking for yourself and forming your own opinion and theories.
Quote:
A true Christian should live in the future and not in the present. It's all about forgetting about the sinful past, and not being worried about this earthyl life because you await a perfect eternal one. No one should live in the past, Christian or not - it's simply not healthy. If you see Christians doing this, is not a mark of Christianity, but mark of their imperfectness as a human being.
Odd, how everything bad you shove on imperfection as a human... Yet you block every effort made to create a more perfect human. As for the eternal life... I cannot take that statement into account since the existance of such a life has not been proven (it needs to be existant throughout human life, not constrained to religion). Since many cultures do not believe in the existance of a heaven where all souls gather after living on earth, I cannot help but question it's existance. I also cannot help but question it's ability to exist: Every soul who dies ends up either there or in hell? That would mean those realms must be in a constant state of expansion... Since the life there is eternal. And since earth's population keeps expanding more people die every year...
Quote:
I don't agree with bloodshed for religion just as much as you don't. No one should ever claim they are better than you because they are Christian, they are not. All people are created equal, and are no more special than you. Only God has the right to judge the wrongs of this world anyway...and if the "Christians" who caused bloodshed realized this one simple ideal, they realize thier hypocrisy. I would never defend my Christian brothers or sisters when they are clearly in the wrong.
Apparantly, your god does not judge so man takes matters in his own hands, often in your god's name. Your god does not object to this, one can conclude from his inaction.
And if you're not better as a christian, explain the existance of those Jehova's?
Quote:
Man is not evil by nature, at least he wasn't. Adam had not a trace of evil in before sin. Sin is evil by nature, not human beings. But since we live a world full of immorality and sin, it is impossible to avoid and impossible not to commit. The Father realizes the the power of sin, and forgives us for it through the death of his own Son. If you find someone who hasn't committed a sin by the laws of the Bible, let me know I'd love to meet him (would be Jesus again).
Eye for an eye is a classic one of those. How many people take revenge each day? Sin of wrath as written in your bible...
And if the definition of sin is rebellion against god, then by all means call me a sinner. I will accept none as such above me. Only as an equal.
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Peace, Grace, Love, and Wisdom be with you all...
Wisdom and freedom... In Body, Mind and Spirit. EOF();
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Old 06-26-04   #16
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Originally Posted by Duke E.
What can I say, but Surreal answered alot of the same questions but with briefer, perhaps better answers. He is full of wisdom, and we both share the same God. If you refuse to listen to me, try and listen to him...
it probably depends on which audience we are speaking to.
for a different angle on the same subject, you might guide them my way.
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Old 06-26-04   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surreal
i'll answer this by taking quotes and just kinda commenting.

i'm not insinuating anything, but just consider the fact that despite what we believe in our limited capacities, the truth is what it is, and it's one thing (though controversial it is). perhaps some of us are closer to understanding it. it's the christian assertation of knowing that what they proclaim is truth that bothers you, am i right?
No, it's the way they claim truth as a dogma: Something that was written once, and need no proving whatsoever anymore to reaffirm it. This is something I find appalling. It shows that individuals who do this have abandoned their common sense for their ideals. Something that has proven dangerous over the years...
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i'm not shoving the bible in your face by any means, but i've found that some parts of that book have good advice. i won't just toss it aside, that's for sure.
Granted, it is a good moral guideline. However, it is simply unfit as a lawbook of sorts. For that it's texts are simply... outdated.
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funny but christ never acted "holier than thou". that's where christians go wrong.
True. But a whole cadre of priests, popes, reverants and apostels do show that mentality. And since they are the face of the christian religion these days...
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i think the original intention was to depict man as something subject to evil, but not evil by nature (though, i know, most christians don't see it that way).
Debatable. Common opinion is different, but you're entitled to yours.
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yea they do that, though that's the opposite of what Jesus asked them to do in their texts.
Odd, isn't it. Claiming to be better because you follow the teachings of some 2000 year old cult, yet in doing so you do not follow those teachings... Heh, I must remember this one. Excellent material to make any persistant Jehova question his actions...
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hmm. well you can grab any book with commandments from any particular entity of figurehead and decide to just accept them with no lee way.
what makes people stick by the bible 100%, in my book, isn't always well considered. if God told me that was truth, i'd accept it in a hearbeat. he has me listening for that right now.
just a mind opening tidbit my man. if you feel God said it's true, have at it, and put a request in for me.
Same here. But 'till I have such a communique I cannot accept dogma's as absolute truth. They are opinions of religious leaders, nothing more. Writings of people who lived centuries in the past. Those CANNOT be applied to current cultures.
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Old 06-26-04   #18
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Granted, it is a good moral guideline. However, it is simply unfit as a lawbook of sorts. For that it's texts are simply... outdated.
i'm probably taking it out of context here but i have to say this much.
it doesn't matter to me when it was written. as long as it works.

now as i stated, i don't go by the bible unless feeling advised to by God. (which is often, to say the least). i've found no part in particular that didn't ring true, save for parts of the old testament that Jesus' life altered.
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Old 06-26-04   #19
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First... I applaud your efforts to verify the text. Your method (empathic sensing) would probably be opposed by the churches however.

But I still disagree. The bible was written over 2000 years ago (most of it). It was written in the context of the christian cult against the civilisations then present in what is now the mideast. It's context has since been lost.
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Old 06-26-04   #20
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many of the aspects of life they dealt with in those days are still present today. i'm not really seeing a point in trading words over this though, as neither of us holds that this book is undeniable in its truth. our acceptance of it is a bit different, but that's all due to experience.

as for what the churches think.. you're right and it's never really bothered me.
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