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Reload this Page In the great Schism, who split from who? (historical debate)
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Old 05-17-04   #1
Turk Albert
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In the great Schism, who split from who? (historical debate)

Okay, first of all let me tell you waht this is not. This is not a thead to prove the existance of god, or the validity of religion in general. This is basically meant to prove a point from a historical standpoint.

Who is hte original religion, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church? and in the great schism, did the Catholics split from the Orthodox, or did hte orthodox split from the catholics?

This arguement started this morning, at about 6AM. We were talking about religious shit, was a girl named min-min, we were at first arguing about the protestant sect, and we generally agreed, which didn't make much of a debate, until I tell her that, technically, the Eastern Orthodos Church could be considered a protestant sect. After I said that, she comes up with shit that The Roman Catholic Church, actually split away from the Eastern Orthodox Church (meaning, eastern orthodox was original)

Now, the arguement is pretty solidly in favor of the RCC being the original church, and the EOC being the one that split off from the catholcs.

What do you believie and why?
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Old 05-17-04   #2
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Essentially all them religions are a spinoff from judaism... Starting out as a sect early after year 0 by our calender... It just so happens that sect grew out to one of the biggest religions in the world. The key to discovering who spun off of who is finding out when the seat of the roman catholic church appeared first... in rome. Crossreference that with the earliest emergance of the eastern church and you'll find they are in fact both spinoffs (missionary works) of the religion that started a few decades earlier...
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Old 05-17-04   #3
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I am aware of this, but that wasn't the point. Orthodox & catholic christanities are both different camps, the question is: Who split from who?

The catholics were first, the popes were given the right from Jesus himself, while the constiples of constantinople were closely tied with the empire (if not equal to it?).

That's the major flaw in the arguement that hte RCC broke fromt he EOC, which obvously tells you I believe in the oppisite of that as do most historical references.
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Old 05-18-04   #4
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Aeternus--Wait, what? Judaism was not, nor has it ever been the biggest religion in the world.

Turk--the RCC is not the same now as it was before the Reformation, the RCC pre-Reformation was not the RCC before the devolution of the Western Roman Empire into kingdoms, the RCC before that was the same as the EOC. And it really doesn't matter who split form who because both the Pope and the Patriarch excomunicated eachother in the same year.
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Old 05-19-04   #5
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Something needs not be big to create something else: All religions/cults start with a single "divine" leader. In this case, J. C.
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Old 05-19-04   #6
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yeah, but you actually said that Judaism was one of the largest religions in the world.
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Old 05-19-04   #7
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With "biggest sect" I was referring to christianity, not judaism...
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Old 05-19-04   #8
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it was a roman emporer named constatine that discovered christianity from a few scragglers that made their way out of the "holy land" and made it a world wide foundation, at some point people became disenfranchised with where the roman approach to the religion was going, and then broke away...so i guess in that sense, it's the roman catholic that would be the original concept of christianity.

without constatine the spreaders of the faith would have been hunted down and killed just as their illustrious leader was...
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Old 05-19-04   #9
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What Jordyn said...

After all, if you follow the logic, you only get one answer. The Church was run by the pope. The pope was in Rome. If you have a schism, and the pope is still in Rome running the Church, then whatever other denomination you have being run by someone somewhere else is obviously the group that broke away from the original Church. 'nuff said.
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I feel this way on DF...a lot.
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Old 05-19-04   #10
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Constantine's mother was christian, Jordyn. Constantine was no fool, he knew that the christians were a sect growing in numbers and influence. Him keeping christianity banned would have been about as smart as the US putting a total ban on mosques.
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Old 05-20-04   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy_Person
Constantine's mother was christian, Jordyn. Constantine was no fool, he knew that the christians were a sect growing in numbers and influence. Him keeping christianity banned would have been about as smart as the US putting a total ban on mosques.
they embraced christianity when constatine had a dream of a flaming cross...she wasn't born christian...
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Old 05-20-04   #12
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She was christian before Constantine converted. Constantine did not have a vision of a burning cross, he had a vision of the Chi Rho, shining in the clouds above a battlefield, the symbol of the cross wasn't used by christians until long after Constantine had been dead. Spin again.
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Old 05-20-04   #13
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oh whatever, the point is that without rome...christianity would be as dead as jesus...
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Old 05-20-04   #14
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Why? Christianity spread into the Persian empire, and even further eastward, as well, it spread down the Nile much beyond the bounds of the Roman empire.

Even if what you say is true, so what?
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Old 05-20-04   #15
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i believe the topic was inquiring what was the "original church" and i was explaining my reasoning for believing the roman catholic faith was the first...however i've heard it was the baptists..but i've seen nothing in history suggesting that the christiana were anything more than a cult before rome got a hold of them...
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Old 05-20-04   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turk Albert

Who is hte original religion, the Roman Catholic Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church? and in the great schism, did the Catholics split from the Orthodox, or did hte orthodox split from the catholics?
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Old 05-20-04   #17
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The RCC before Constantine legalized it was a very large, very influential religion, almot on par with the Mithraists. Once he made it the state religion, the capital of the RCC remained in Rome even though the capital of Rome was Byzantium. After a while, lots of folks in the RCC thought that the capital of the religion should remain where the capital of the empire was. The RCC came up with a lot of reasons, some of which seem quite suspect to me, why it should remain in Rome. It wasn't so much a branching off as mutual split.
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Old 05-20-04   #18
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yay for them...either way they ended up wiping out some amazing cultures, including those that had no written record...so we'll never know the truth about pre christian people...at least their history is well verified.
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Old 05-20-04   #19
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That's not actually true, either. Not that they didn't wipe our groups of people; they did. But, the idea that we know nothing about them is totally fallacious and basically an excuse (on the part of christian eurocentric historians) to not bother actually looking at them.
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Old 05-20-04   #20
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so, find anything factually written concerning the keltic culture, written by the kelts themselves...aside from archeological studies, they have no information on them...and even then experts are guessing.
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