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Old 04-15-03   #1
vampira666
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Christian goths

I don't get it...... I really don't. I have read many websites about it but they all seem to contradict themselves. Anybody have any insight at all about this? I personally am an atheist but I do try to understand others........
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Old 04-15-03   #2
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What is it exactly that you dont get about them?
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Old 04-15-03   #3
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What I don't understand is their explanation on how a person can be goth and christian at the same time. It's all doublespeak. The frightening thing is that the vast majority of the sites are run by ministry groups. Which makes me beleive that they are just trying to convert people.
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Old 04-15-03   #4
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I think it's a little strange too. Probably bored goths looking for something new.
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Old 04-15-03   #5
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Um, describe what definitions of both you're going upon and I can possibly explain what you don't seem to get.
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Old 04-15-03   #6
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The romantic movement in the early 19th century has hugely influenced the modern gothic movement in terms of literature and in terms of imagery. These poets and thinkers were largely atheists who tried to find meaning in the world around them rather than in the bible. They questioned everything.Some were excommunicated for this. Christianity is a religion in which you are not encouraged to question anything at all.You are supposed to take it for what it is. I mean didn't Lucifer get sent to hell for questioning god? This is what I don't understand. How can a christian follow a movement which was founded upon the questioning of religion and everything in general? Along with the fact that this questioning lead to some very dark imagery that I am sure that the christian religion wouldn't approve of.
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Old 04-15-03   #7
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The Christians of today are not like the Christians of the early 19th century (at least I like to think a good portion of them aren't)
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Old 04-15-03   #8
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perhaps these are people who are beginning to question the old beliefs and want to talk to others like themselves.
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Old 04-15-03   #9
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...but they have the same basic beliefs and they read the same bible.
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Old 04-15-03   #10
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I think you need to get to know some actual everyday Christians and stop operating off of stereotypes. Simply because one Gothic person may have atheistic thoughts and ideals does not mean that every single one must. Thats the beautiful thing about the Gothic subculture; given that it is a state of mind, you'll find as much variety from person to person as you would with any diverse group. There is no real "core" set of beliefs or ideals that one must have to be gothic. To believe so is ludicrous. The base set of Christian ideals are:

-Believe in God
-Love God
-Treat others as you want to be treated
-Repent for wrongdoings

I see nothing in the Gothic subculture that conflicts with these. Do you? You shouldn't, because there isn't anything. You seem to be going from an outside/hostile view of Christianity, which is simply not the way it is. You can't lump all Christians in with the precious few who act like morons. To do so is hateful, spiteful, and just plain wrong. People from fringe subcultures complain when they are a victim of this, yet many of them (they are, usually, "posers," for lack of a better term, anyway) do the same thing. Its no more fair no matter which direction it comes from.

Everything that you mention is an angle of the Gothic movement - - but nothing was ever started until Siouxsie Sioux and The Banshees made the transformation from Punk to Goth many decades ago. In fact, the Punk and Goth movements are closely related, moreso than the things that you mention. Certainly, those authors and thinkers are an inspiration, but that doesn't put them in with the movement in any way, shape, or form. They're just that: an inspiration. One can be inspired by any number of people, but does that necessarily mean that they share beliefs? Certainly not.

I think that you've been operting off of the wrong idea of the gothic subculture when you considered this. Its not your fault; there are a lot of misconceptions out there. But in any case, I hope this helped. If not, I may have to kill you for the waste of 15 minutes in thinking out exactly what I wanted to say...I'm never getting those 15 minutes back, you know.
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Old 04-15-03   #11
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I know how the modern gothic subculture started. I know that it spawned from punk. That is only in terms of music and outside appearance. Those writers and thinkers that I breifly mentioned before do have a whole lot to do with the basis of the movement in my opinion. Just because I don't understand why christians are in the movement doesn't mean I am filled with hate. You are being very defensive. I have known some christian goths and they were some of the most confused people that I have ever met.On one side of the coin they want to act and think from a dark point of view...but then on the other side they feel guilty about it because they are not sure if that is what god would approve of. I mean isn't that a form of mental self abuse? How could they be happy if they are questioning their own behaviour on a daily basis?
I am not closed minded nor am I a new to the gothic experience. I have been in the scene for about the last 16 years and I have met every kind of individual that you can think of. I have formed my opinions on life experience and from observation. I didn't have to read a website or read a book to understand who I am. I figured it all out a long time ago. You may think that my views about the gothic movement are all wrong....but guess what? They are MY views. I may not agree with you but that that doesn't mean that I am wrong. Every goth has their own opinion on what the movement is all about.
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Old 04-15-03   #12
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See, had you gone more in depth in the first place, I wouldn't have become so defensive, and for that I apologize.

(I'm Agnostic anyway...so its not like there's much to defend)

In any case, I was speaking also to anyone who might read this post and feel the need to respond, because believe it or not the "What is Goth" question comes up here every 5 minutes and I get sick of it every time. So it wasn't just to you. Sorry if it seemed that way.

Actually, I think that many goths who are also Christian are Agnostic but just won't admit it because they think its bad. It really amounts to the same thing...but its always good to question. Its not so much mental abuse as it is a grand puzzle that takes much thought and consideration to put together. I don't even have the frame assembled yet.

I don't agree that those artists are as much of a basis as they are an inspiration (and either way, it doesn't mean that their beliefs are also shared), or something of that sort. No matter what, though, its merely part of one whole, and all the parts aren't even necessary as you know. Obviously we seem to be disagreeing to some extent, but again, thats why the Gothic subculture is so great. Mainstream, everyone would have to agree and all other views would be smashed out.

Now personally, I believe that it all revolves around self awareness as well as an acute awareness of once surroundings...though many times that leads to cynisim (sp?) and such...but thats just the way things are sometimes. To me, its very introspective, thoughtful, and pondering. Along with this is an ability to look at the bigger picture. That's just what I can think of on the short time I have right now...If I really thought about what it meant to me I could probably elaborate on all of that.

BTW, exactly what do you consider to be a dark point of view? Out of curiosity.
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Old 04-15-03   #13
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Dark point of view? I feel that means that a person looks upon things in a light that might be considered morbid,or depressing,(dark) by the rest of society. To that person it doesn't seem that way, of course, because that is just the way that they think. Know what I mean?
I think being goth does come from the inside and that you can't just make it happen. Everybody has different experiences and inspirations when it comes to this. The younger set has got to realize that you can't just go out and buy something and expect your whole inner being to change because of it.
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Old 04-15-03   #14
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*knows what you mean* i certainly don't think that morbid and dark thoughts are depressing.........actually they can be quite beautiful
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Old 04-15-03   #15
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They can be very beautiful indeed.....
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Old 04-16-03   #16
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I think a lot of old writers like Sheridan Le Fanu and MR James did set the scene in certain ways, maybe more so now than in the 80's now that the whole zeitgeist has changed from being an image to project on Top Of The Pops...
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Old 04-16-03   #17
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Ok, yeah, I was just comparing definition on "dark."

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The younger set has got to realize that you can't just go out and buy something and expect your whole inner being to change because of it.
And amen to that. Though being 17, I am sort of with the "younger set." - - age-wise anyway. I don't do that at all...
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Old 04-21-03   #18
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I beleave in god.

theres no need to say i beleave in christ (theres more written documents proving his existance then there is of julius ceaser (sp?) ) but this post isn't about defending my relegion.

Quote:
Christianity is a religion in which you are not encouraged to question anything at all.You are supposed to take it for what it is. I mean didn't Lucifer get sent to hell for questioning god?
Satan/lucifer/bleahalzuhbub (sp?) was actualy thrown down to hell for trying to usurp god power which, considering today's standards, is farely reasonable.

I love god, and every now and then something some one has said passes through my mind and hits a switch and i start to think. and think. and think. until i finaly come up with a theory/idea i agree with, then i write it down. afterwards i discuss my ideas with anyone i can, my relegious (and also in some cases non-goth) friends, my religious teachers at highschool and even some of my friends ministers.

i feel totaly secure in doing so, god gave us a brain, and not to use it would be a waste, a shame and an idiocy.


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I have been in the scene for about the last 16 years and I have met every kind of individual that you can think of
no you haven't. this isn't a personal atack but you haven't met every type of person. i often dwell on the so called 'morbid aspects' of life, and i still love gof, i do not doubt his existance in any way, just the interpretations some people make of him (its easier to say 'him' then him/her/it. i don't beleave god has a gender)

to say you've met every type or person is rediculious. there are well over 6 billion people in the world (i think) each is entirely unique in thier own way, even if they don't beleave it or want to accept it. and i sincerly doubt you know the entire populatopn of the world by thier first names.

so relax, and don't question another person's life choice.

oh and finalword, good on you


ps, how come its ok to have buhdist and wichen goths but not christian?
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Old 04-21-03   #19
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Quote:
and i sincerly doubt you know the entire populatopn of the world by thier first names.
She wasn't claiming to know the entire population as a whole, but maybe, different kinds of people whom share a lot of the same views.

Quote:
ps, how come its ok to have buhdist and wichen goths but not christian?
Who exactly is this omnipotent goth source that decides what religion is feasible? If you hadn't noticed, the religious aspect really has nothing to do with it, unless your impressing your little friends with how dark you are.
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Old 04-22-03   #20
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Quote:
She wasn't claiming to know the entire population as a whole, but maybe, different kinds of people whom share a lot of the same views.
The point is, she doesn't know every different type of person from every different type of lifestyle. No one can claim to know everyone in the world; likewise, no one can claim to know all of the lifestyles carried by these people, or even the majority of them.

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Who exactly is this omnipotent goth source that decides what religion is feasible? If you hadn't noticed, the religious aspect really has nothing to do with it, unless your impressing your little friends with how dark you are.
I think you misinterpreted him. He's saying that most people who operate on stereotypes and such (we're all guilty of it at some point) are less accepting of the Christian/Goth mixture (as indicated by, among other things, this very thread). Obviously no one decides anything one way or the other. There are no 'requirements,' we all know that. But the treatment of individuals can make it feel that way.

Oh, and his other points were correct, about Lucifer been booted for trying to run things himself and the like for example. Just wanted to point that out.
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