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Old 07-12-02   #1
Weird_Beard
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Messiah is Jesus? Is he the savior of all the wolrd?

Well, well, well. Good to see you all once again.
I haven't seen much religious discussion about Jesus being the Messiah as I browsed through here so here is what I consider to be some pretty good show and tell. And, uh, sorry for the length.
These are some typical questions asked about proof that Jesus was the messiah. Let's start at the beginning point.

The following twenty-five Old Testament prophecies deal with events surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus Christ including His betrayal, trial, death and burial. They were uttered by many different voices and over a period of 500 years, yet they were all fulfilled within twenty-four hours on the day that He died for the sins of the world.

Prophecies Relating to Christ’s Crucifixion
1. Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver
Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12 And I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.

Fulfillment: Matthew 26:14-15 Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests, 15 and said, “What are you willing to give me to deliver Him up to you?” And they weighed out to him thirty pieces of silver.

2. Betrayed By a Friend
Prophecy: Psalm 55:12-14 For it is not an enemy who reproaches me, Then I could bear it; Nor is it one who hates me who has exalted himself against me, Then I could hide myself from him. 13 But it is you, a man my equal, My companion and my familiar friend. 14 We who had sweet fellowship together, Walked in the house of God in the throng. (See also Psalm 41:9; Zech 13:6).

Fulfillment: Matthew 26:49-50 And immediately he went to Jesus and said, “Hail, Rabbi!” and kissed Him. 50 And Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.

3. The Money Cast to the Potter
Prophecy: Zechariah 11:13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:5-7 And he threw the pieces of silver into the sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7 And they counseled together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers.

NOTE: Notice that in both prophecy and fulfillment we find stated that (1) it was silver; (2) there were 30 pieces (Matt. 27:; ( they were thrown down; (4) they were cast down in the House of the Lord; and (5) the money was used to purchase the potter’s field.

4. The Disciples Forsook Him
Prophecy: Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," Declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.

Fulfillment: Matthew 26:56 “But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled. (See also Mark 14:27)

5. Accused by False Witnesses
Prophecy: Psalm 35:11 Malicious witnesses rise up; They ask me of things that I do not know.

Fulfillment: Matthew 26:59-60 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, in order that they might put Him to death; and they did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, . . .

6. Smitten and Spit Upon
Prophecy: Isaiah 50:6 I gave My back to those who strike Me, And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard; I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:30 And they spat on Him, and took the reed and began to beat Him on the head.

NOTE: Note here the details that correspond in both prophecy and fulfillment (1) He was to be smitten, (2) He was to be smitten on the face (as well as the other parts of the body). See Luke 22:64. ( He was to be spit upon, and (4) He was to be spitten upon in the face.

7. Dumb Before His Accusers
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:12-14 And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He made no answer. Then Pilate said to Him, “Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?” And He did not answer him with regard to even a single charge, so that the governor was quite amazed.

8. Wounded and Bruised
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:26, 29 Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he delivered Him to be crucified. . . . And after weaving a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they kneeled down before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”

9. Fell Under the Cross
Prophecy: Psalm 109:24 My knees are weak from fasting; And my flesh has grown lean, without fatness.

Fulfillment: John 19:17 They took Jesus therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to the place called the Place of a Skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha. Luke 23:26 And when they led Him away, they laid hold of one Simon of Cyrene, coming in from the country, and placed on him the cross to carry behind Jesus.

NOTE: Evidently the Lord was so weak that His knees gave way under the weight of the heavy cross. So they had to put it on another.

10. Hands and Feet Pierced
Prophecy: Psalm 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.

Fulfillment: Luke 23:33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left.

NOTE: Christ was crucified in the customary Roman manner, the hands and feet being pierced by huge spikes which fastened the body to the wooden cross. See John 20:25-27 “ . . . except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails . . . Then said He (Jesus) to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands,” etc.

11. Crucified with Thieves
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Fulfillment: Mark 15:27-28 And they crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. 28 (And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with transgressors.")

12. Prayed For His Persecutors
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. (emphasis mine)

Fulfillment: Luke 23:34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.

Here Jesus, as foreseen by Isaiah, “interceded for the transgressors” who nailed him to the cross.

13. People Shook Their Heads
Prophecy: Psalm 109:25 I also have become a reproach to them; When they see me, they wag their head.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:39 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads.

14. People Ridiculed Him
Prophecy: Psalm 22:8 “Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:41-43 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him, and saying, 42 “He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we shall believe in Him. 43 “He trusts in God; let Him deliver Him now, if He takes pleasure in Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

15. People Astonished
Prophecy: Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me;

Fulfillment: Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”

16. Garments Parted and Lots Cast
Prophecy: Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

Fulfillment: John 19:23-24 The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified Jesus, took His outer garments and made four parts, a part to every soldier and also the tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece. 24 They said therefore to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be”; that the Scripture might be fulfilled, “They divided My outer garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.”

NOTE: How exact the inspired prophecy! The garments were to be parted among them, but the vesture was to be awarded to one by lots. These were statements that would appear almost contradictory unless explained by the record of the scene at the cross.

17. His Forsaken Cry
Prophecy: Psalm 22:1 For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? “that is, “ My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me ?”

18. Gall and Vinegar Given Him
Prophecy: Psalm 69:21 They also gave me gall for my food, And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Fulfillment: John 19:28-29 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop, and brought it up to His mouth.

19. Committed Himself to God
Prophecy: Psalm 31:5 Into Thy hand I commit my spirit; Thou hast ransomed me, O LORD, God of truth.

Fulfillment: Luke 23:46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit.” And having said this, He breathed His last.

20. Friends Stood Afar Off
Prophecy: Psalm 38:11 My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague; And my kinsmen stand afar off.

Fulfillment: Luke 23:49 And all His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee, were standing at a distance, seeing these things.

21. Bones Not Broken
Prophecy: Psalm 34:20 He keeps all his bones; Not one of them is broken.

Fulfillment: John 19:33, 36 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs; . . . 36 For these things came to pass, that the Scripture might be fulfilled,” Not a bone of Him shall be broken. “

NOTE: It is profitable to notice two other prophecies concerning His bones which undoubtedly had an exact fulfillment, although such is not stated in Scripture in so many words. We draw our conclusions from honest inference. (1) Psalm 22:14 “All my bones are out of joint.” Hanging on the cross by the hands and feet would easily disjoint the bones, especially when we remember that the body was fixed to the frame while lying on the ground. (2) Psalm 22:17 “I may tell all My bones.” He was left hanging on the cross naked (John 19:2 and all His bones could thus easily be seen. The extension of the body and the wasting pangs of crucifixion would make the bones more prominent than usual.

22. Heart Broken
Prophecy: Psalm 22:14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me.

Fulfillment: John 19:34 but one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water.

NOTE: The blood and water running out of the pierced side presented an evidence that the heart had literally burst.

23. His Side Pierced
Prophecy: Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.

Fulfillment: John 19:34-37 but one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water. 35 And he who has seen has borne witness, and his witness is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36 For these things came to pass, that the Scripture might be fulfilled,” Not a bone of Him shall be broken. “ 37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

24. Darkness Over the Land
Prophecy: Amos 8:9 “And it will come about in that day,” declares the Lord GOD, “That I shall make the sun go down at noon And make the earth dark in broad daylight.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.

NOTE: The Jews reckoned twelve hours from sunrise to sunset. This would make the sixth hour about noon, and the ninth hour near three o’clock.

25. Buried in a Rich Man’s Tomb
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:57-60 And when it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. 58 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given over to him. 59 And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.

Old Testament Prophecies
Relating to the Person of Christ
1. His first Advent
The Fact: Gen. 3:15; Deut. 18:15; Psa. 89:20; Isa. 2:2; 28:16; 32:1; 35:4; 42:6; 49:1; 55:4; Ezek. 34:24; Dan. 2:44; Micah 4:1; Zech 3:8.

The Time: Gen. 49:10; Num. 24:17; Dan. 9:24; Mal. 3:1.

His Divinity: Psa. 2:7, 11; 45: 6-7, 11; 72:8; 102:24-27; 89:26-27; 110:1; Isa. 9:6; 25:9; 40:10; Jer. 23:6; Micah 5:2; Mal 8:1.

Human Generation: Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 21:12; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10; 2 Sam. 7:14; Psa. 18:4-6; 50:22-23; 89:4, 29-30; 132:11; Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; 33:15.

2. His Forerunner
Isa. 40:3; Mal. 3:1; 4:5.

3. His Nativity and Early Years
The Fact: Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; Jer 31:22

The Place: Num. 24:17, 19; Micah 5:2

Adoration by Magi: Psalm 72:10, 15; Isa. 60:3, 6

Descent into Egypt: Hosea 11:1

Massacre of Innocents: Jer 31:15

4. His Mission and Office
Mission: Gen. 12:3; 49:10; Num. 24:19; Deut. 19:18; Psa. 21:1; Isa. 59:20; Jer. 33:16

Priest Like Melchizedek: Psalm 110:4

Prophet Like Moses: Deut. 18:15

Conversion of Gentiles: Isa. 11:10; Deut. 32:43; Psa. 18:49; 19:4; 117:1; Isa. 42:1; 45:23; 49:6; Hosea 1:10; 2:23; Joel 2:32.

Ministry in Galilee: Isa. 9:1-2

Miracles: Isa. 35:5-6; 42:7; 53:4

Spiritual Graces: Psa. 45:7; Isa. 11:2; 42:1; 53:9; 61:1-2

Preaching: Psa. 2:7; 78:2; Isa. 2:3; 61:1; Micah 4:2

Purification of Temple: Psa. 69:9

5. His Purpose
Rejection by Jews and Gentiles: Psa. 2:1; 22:12; 41:5; 56:5; 69:8; 118:22-23; Isa. 6:9-10; 8:14; 29:13; 53:1; 65:2

Persecution: Psa. 22:6; 35:7, 12; 56:5; 71:10; 109:2; Isa. 49:7; 53:3

Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem: Psa. 8:2; 118:25-26; Zech. 9:9

Betrayal by Own Friend: Psa. 41:9; 55:13; Zech 13:6

Betrayal for Thirty Pieces: Zech. 11:12

Betrayer’s Death: Psa. 55:15, 23; 109:17

Purchase of Potter’s Field: Zech 11:13

Desertion by Disciples: Zech 13:7

False Accusation: Psa. 27:12; 35:11; 109:2; Psa. 2:1-2

Silence Under Accusation: Psa. 38:13; Isa. 53:7

Mocking: Psalm 22:7-8, 16; 109:25

Insult, Buffeting, Spitting, Scourging: Psa. 35:15-, 21; Isa. 50:6

Patience Under Suffering: Isa. 53:7-9

Crucifixion: Psa. 22:14, 17

Offer of Gall and Vinegar: Psa. 69:21

Prayer for Enemies: Psa. 109:4

Cries Upon the Cross: Psa. 22:1; 31:5

Death in Prime of Life: Psa. 89:45; 102:24

Death with Malefactors: Isaiah 53:9, 12

Death Attested by Convulsions of Nature: Amos 5:20; Zech 14:4-6

Casting Lots for Vesture: Psa. 22:18

Bones not to be Broken: Psa. 34:20

Piercing: Psa. 22:16; Zech 12:10; 13:6

Voluntary Death: Psa. 40:6-8

Vicarious Suffering: Isa. 53:4-6, 12; Dan 9:26

Burial with the Rich: Isa. 53:9

6. His Resurrection
Psalm 16:8-10; 30:3; 41:10; 118:17; Hosea 6:2

7. His Ascension
Psalm 16:11; 24:7; 68:18; 110:1; 118:19

8. His Second Advent
Psalm 50:3-6; Isa. 9:6-7; 66:18; Dan 7:13-14; Zech. 12:10; 14:4-8.

Dominion Universal and Everlasting: 1 Chron. 17:11-14; Psa. 72:8; Isa. 9:7; Dan 7:14; Psa. 2;6-8; 8:6; 110:1-3; 45:6-7

Like I said, this is lengthy. But worthy of discussion I figure.
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Old 07-15-02   #2
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Very interesting...and I agree, it could make for an excellent discussion.

But, since I have very little biblical knowledge myself, I'll just shamelessly copy&paste an excellent post Duddy made on another thread, to get things going here...now beardy...debate this:

Quote:
Originally posted by Duddy
Jesus did NOT fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah. He's fake:

*He was not a descendant of King David through his father's side, as he was supposed to be.(Remember G-d himself was supposedly his father, and G-d did not come from King David)
*He never rebuilt the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem
*He went against the laws that G-D HIMSELF set up in the Old Testament, and he said they didn't apply anymore. In the Old Testament, it says that those laws are to be forever. So suddenly jesus knows what's good foro mankind, moreso than G-d himself?
*Jesus of Nazareth? Nope, he wasn't born there. Sorry.
*The Messiah was supposed to unite all of Israel again. Did jesus do that? Hell no.
*"Born of a virgin?" Bullshit, the original Hebrew word in that prophecy means 'young woman', not 'virgin'. christians can't even translate right.
*Go read through every geneology of jesus in the new testament. Notice that none of them are the same. How interesting.
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Old 07-15-02   #3
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Thanks Clear, I didn't feel like typing that out again. Dude, if you want to claim that jesus fulfilled the prophecies, at least learn the prophecies. And learn them in the original language, Hebrew. I have yet to see a decent christian translation. Can I read biblical Hebrew? Yes. Can you?
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Old 07-16-02   #4
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Phew...and here I was so worried you'd be upset at me 'stealing' you post.
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Old 07-18-02   #5
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Duddy, your admission that you can read biblical hebrew is interesting. I am sure all the Jews that do believe in Jesus as Messiah that also know "biblical hebrew" have looked earnestly at these prophecies and have found them to be true don't you think?
But alas, I digress. I would like to point out some more angles of why Jesus IS the Messiah prophecied in your own scripture.

Scripture says that the Messiah had to become a human being. The Messiah’s humanity is prophetically spoken of in Genesis 3:15, when God is pronouncing judgment against the serpent following the fall of Adam and Eve. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel. The word “offspring” refers to descendants. The Messiah would be a descendant of the woman — that is, He would be a human being. We find this fulfilled in Galatians 4:4-5. But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Scripture says that the Messiah had to be Jewish — that is, He had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Of all human beings who have ever lived, only Jewish human beings would qualify.

Genesis 12:1-3
God makes a covenant with Abraham (the “father” of the Jews):

The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Haran. When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”

Duddy, I believe as I am sure you do that these Bible passages indicate that the promised seed (in Genesis 3:15) was to come through the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Also, Messiah had to come from the tribe of Judah. This is demonstrated in Genesis 49:10. The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. Here Jacob is on his deathbed. Before he dies, he affirms that the sceptre (of the ruling Messiah) would be from the tribe of Judah.
Scripture tells us that the Messiah had to be from David’s family. We see this affirmed in 2 Samuel 7:16. Your [i.e., David’s] house and your kingdom shall endure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever. We also read in Jeremiah 23:5-6. “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.”

Clearly the ruling Messiah had to come from the family of David. Agreed?

Next, scripture clearly prophesies that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. This narrows the circle of possible candidates for the Messiah tremendously. Micah 5:2 tells us. “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
So far we have seen that the Messiah had to become a human being, had to be a Jew, had to be from the tribe of Judah and the family of David, and He must be born in Bethlehem (a small, insignificant city in ancient times). Failure to fulfill any one of these conditions disqualifies a person as a possible candidate.

Regarding the Messiah’s manner of life, rejection, and death, lets look at Isaiah 53. One passage of scripture I am postitive you are more than just a little familar with.
Note the following excerpts:

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. (Isa. 53:1-4). He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. (Isa. 53:7-9). Note from these verses that: (1) The Messiah was to be despised and rejected by His fellow Jews. (2) He would be put to death following a judicial proceeding. ( He would be guiltless. Obviously these facts about the Messiah narrow the circle still further.


Now Duddy, lets look at Daniel 9:24-26:

“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens’, and sixty-two ‘sevens’. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens’, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Regarding this passage, note the following facts: (1) The city would be rebuilt, as would the Temple. (2) The Messiah would come. ( The Messiah would be “cut off” (die) but not for Himself. (4) The city and the Temple would be destroyed.

Note especially that the Messiah had to come and die prior to the destruction of the second temple, which occurred in A.D. 70.

Is there anyone who has fulfilled all these conditions? Is there anyone who was a human being, a Jew, from the tribe of Judah and the family of David, born in Bethlehem, was despised and rejected by the Jewish people, died as a result of a judicial proceeding, was guiltless, and came and died before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70? Yes there was Duddy, and His name was Jesus!

From the Book of Genesis to the Book of Malachi, the Old Testament abounds with anticipations of the coming Messiah. Numerous predictions — fulfilled to the “crossing of the t” and the “dotting of the i” in the New Testament — relate to His birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection, and glory.

Now, some liberal scholars have attempted to argue that these prophecies were made after Jesus lived, not before. They have suggested that the books of the Old Testament were written close to the time of Christ and that the messianic prophecies were merely Christian inventions. But to make this type of claim is to completely ignore the historical evidence.

Even the most liberal critics, and if they were to be honest, even some here at Darkforum would admit that the prophetic books were completed some 400 years before Christ, and the Book of Daniel by about 167 B.C. Though there is good evidence to date most of these books much earlier (some of the Psalms and earlier prophets were in the eighth and ninth centuries B.C.), what difference would it make? It is just as hard to predict an event 200 years in the future as it is to predict one that is 800 years in the future. Both feats would require nothing less than divine knowledge. Now, I know that most people here completely reject this possibility. But, I think the path is being cleared.

I honestly believe that any reasonable person who examines these Old Testament prophecies in an objective manner must conclude that Jesus was the promised Messiah. “If these messianic prophecies were written hundreds of years before they occurred, and if they could never have been foreseen and depended upon factors outside human control for their fulfillment, and if all of these prophecies perfectly fit the person and life of Jesus Christ, then Jesus had to be the Messiah.”

Actually, Christ on three different occasions directly claimed in so many words to be the “Christ.” (Note that the word Christ is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Messiah.) For example, in John 4:25-26 Jesus encountered a Samaritan woman who said to Him: “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming.” To which Jesus replied, “I who speak to you am he.” Later, Jesus referred to Himself in the third person, in His high priestly prayer to the Father, as “Jesus Christ, whom You sent” (John 17:. In Mark 14:61-62 we find the high priest asking Jesus, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” To which Jesus declared unequivocally, “I am.”

Others also recognized that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. In response to Jesus’ inquiry concerning His disciples’ understanding of Him, Peter confessed: “You are the Christ” (Matt. 16:16). When Jesus said to Martha, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” Martha answered, “Yes, Lord....I believe that you are the Christ” (John 11:25-27).

Many people often ask why Jesus didn't more openly claim to be the prophecied Messiah. Jews of the first century regarded the Messiah primarily as Israel’s national deliverer from the yoke of Gentile oppression....Had Jesus employed uncritically the current popular term as a description of Himself and His mission before divesting it of its one-sided associations and infusing it with its richer, full-orbed Old Testament meaning, which included the work of the Messiah as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, His mission would have been gravely misunderstood and His efforts to instruct the people even more difficult. Consequently, the evidence suggests that He acknowledged He was the ‘Christ’ only where there was little or no danger of His claim being politicized — as in the case of the Samaritan woman, in private conversation with His disciples (at the same time, demanding that they tell no one that He was the Messiah), in semi-private prayer, or before the Sanhedrin when silence no longer mattered or served His purpose.

Even if Jesus had never verbally claimed to be the prophesied Messiah, the very fact that He was the precise fulfillment of virtually hundreds of messianic prophecies cannot be dismissed, as some liberal critics have attempted. The odds against one person fulfilling all these prophecies is astronomical; indeed, it is impossible to calculate. But fulfill these prophecies, Jesus did — and then He added proof upon proof regarding His identity by the many astounding miracles He performed. Truly, Jesus is the Messiah.

I believe this to be true without a shadow of a doubt. Yes, I have done research. I have studied. I once was a non believer. Looking at the historic context of a man from Nazereth who fullfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament changed my thinking.
I believe it is worth the arguement to prove He is Messiah. For if in fact He is, how does that then change you?
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Old 07-19-02   #6
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Not much at all, really...I fail to see the point of worsipping him as a Godman. What did Jesus really do to make him worthy of that status? How does he affect our lives now, 2000 years later?

To put it another way...is it his heritage or his actions that matters? Or both? Is it his ability to perform seemingly incomprehendible deeds (i.e. miracles) that makes so many cling to him like a cripple to his crutch? Or is he just the only proof you can find that god actually cares, or at least did care at some point in time?
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Old 07-19-02   #7
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I believe it is worth the arguement to prove He is Messiah. For if in fact He is, how does that then change you?

One mans Messiah can be anothers pain in the ass.......
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Old 07-19-02   #8
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So much of this shit is just answering what one book prophesised with another book. The Jews said "Blah blah blah, this will happen" and the christians read it and added it to their book to give it legitimacy. Since neither books of the bible are based on much outside fact, the prophecies are very unimpressive.
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Old 07-22-02   #9
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Witchiepoo,
What do you mean how does it affect you 2000 years later? Look around babe, the entire world the past 2000 years has been transformed by the life of Christ has it not? Both in good ways and bad, but mainly good. And IF He truly is the promised Messiah and IF He alone is the only means of eternal life...free from sin, pain, sickness and disease...perfection given as we become like Him upon His return for those of us who have accepted Him as Savior, then I believe it matters much.

By the way, what happened to Dudds?
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Old 07-23-02   #10
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Witchiepoo, eh? So you're back then...

What if he isn't the Messiah? What if he was nothing more than a clever haux? Imagine so many people worshipping a false icon...there'll be plenty of room in heaven, I imagine...

Seriously, as I've already stated on another thread, Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. That was pure assumptions made by the ones around him. They wanted an icon, something to make Christianity rise above the other religions, so they made one. And it worked. What once was nothing more than a cult, is now among the biggest religions worldwide. Clever advertising, in my opinion.

The Bible is so contradictive you can read almost whatever you wish into it. How many times haven't we 'figured out' who the Antichrist is? It has been Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden, and that's just in modern times. Hell, even he internet has been proclaimed a virtual Antichrist. Just as the -Messiah has been spotted both before, and after Jesus. There is a guy right now, who has gathered a large cult around him, they firmly believe he is the second coming. His name escapes me at the moment, but I'll find it.

And Duds is on vacation.
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Old 07-23-02   #11
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Witchiepoo,
What do you mean how does it affect you 2000 years later? Look around babe, the entire world the past 2000 years has been transformed by the life of Christ has it not? Both in good ways and bad, but mainly good. And IF He truly is the promised Messiah and IF He alone is the only means of eternal life...free from sin, pain, sickness and disease...perfection given as we become like Him upon His return for those of us who have accepted Him as Savior, then I believe it matters much.

By the way, what happened to Dudds?
Actually it is science that has had the largest impact within the last two or three centuries...... not Jesus.... our world is so much different from the world we lived in 2,000 years ago.... and that change has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.....
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Old 07-23-02   #12
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Jesus never existed
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Old 07-23-02   #13
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Jewish people want the Pre-jewish people to UPDATE their beliefs

christian people want the jewish people to UPDATE their beliefs

muslim people want the christian people to UPDATE their beliefs

Jewish people tell the Christians and Muslims to screw themselves because they are still waiting for the messiah

Everyone is following the one true religion

I just get some popcorn and watch
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Old 07-23-02   #14
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Jesus never existed
Oh, I think he did. But I have serious doubt he was any sort of Messiah.

I just heard today...according to the dead sea scrolls, I think, and ancient hebrew texts, Jesus was about four foot tall and hunchbacked...not exactly the image people has of him today, eh?

And garg...that post might easily immortalize you...excellent...lol
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Old 07-23-02   #15
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Whether or not some shmoe named Jesus existed seems unimportant. The guy in the bible named Jesus is clearly a mythical person.

I'd have to agree with dyshade for the most part. While religion did shape some of our world, science has done an assload of shaping. From 1 AD to 1300 AD there was not much change in life, probably even a decline in living standards. Did Jesus come back to inspire the world to whip into shape? No, humanists, rationalists and other doubters (along with some devout) changed the world. From that point on, science has been the guiding factor on earth.

And if gargoyle is sitting back to watch, I'm going to sit back and masturbate.
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Old 07-23-02   #16
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ok.. but sit a few feet away from me
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Old 07-23-02   #17
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Of course.
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