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Old 02-26-02   #1
Sphyre
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Question for Christians

Specifically this question is aimed at Christian women, though I don't think there actually ARE any in here, I just thought it was worth a try.

I was wondering how a woman can willfully join and stick with a faith that tells her she is the lowest thing out there. Afterall, the Bible blames all of our problems on Eve, the first woman, so therefore we must be the terrible gender, right? It makes no sense to me. Parts of the Bible tell us that a woman is not even allowed to ask a question in Church, nor is she to be given any rights, even the right to her own job (this has changed in the past two centuries due to new feminist beliefs)

Ancient Judiac law stated that a woman who lost her virginity before marriage was to be stoned to death, and if she were raped that she was to marry her rapist (if she was single, if she were married or betrothed she was to die)

The parts of the New Testement that mention the lowiness of women were not even stated by Jesus, instead by Jewish men who claimed that God had spoken to them.

Then there is always the possiblity that the Judiac/Christian faiths are meant to have a female side, but have been written out. When the names of pagan deities have been changed from female to male (when there is evidence that the people from this time were worshiping Goddesses over Gods in that time) it would not surprise me that perhaps Elohim was meant to be female, but to save face past translators (or even the first author) made the gender male. Or that Christians were given the Goddess Sophia as a mother, but in an attempt to seperate the perescuted Christians of Rome from the new only religion of the Empire they wrote her out.

The need for a mother figure in religion is so perdominate that the Catholics even made a normal woman imortal simply to fill that empty role. But she is not a Goddess, she was just a good woman who never even had sex.

I don't want to make this any longer, but can anyone answer my question?
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Old 02-26-02   #2
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Hmm... That's interesting.
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Old 02-26-02   #3
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simple. just like anyone in any religion, they take the bits they like and ignore [or at least try to] the rest. unless they're the type that would be inferior to the male significant other anyway. because then, well, their religion just cements the fact that they exist to serve their husband and family.

don't forget though, if a person is brought up in a certain faith. lives in a community where that faith prevails and all s/he knows is that faith and all their friends and acquaintances are of that faith and to stray is to be with the devil, and then they marry a someone who is also of that faith, how would the person get out? it's hard. too hard for many. sometimes it's not a matter of that they believe it or not. but that they know nothing else and even if they did, they road is too difficult especially seeing that if they stay within their faith, their lives are already patterned.
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Old 02-27-02   #4
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Well, first off, the letters (all of the New Testament except the Gospels, in other words) are mostly bull crap, with no real support behind them. As you said, Jesus lent no support to them, and actually they contradict a lot of her messages. While there are tones of sexism in the Torah, they're comparitively low. Most of the worst sinners in the Bible are men, with the exceptions of Jezebel, and to a lesser extent Eve. While from our standards the laws may seem horribly sexist, they were remarkably egalitarian for a Copper Age civilization. For some examples- a woman under Judaic law inherited her husbands estate upon his death. This was rare. In most societys, if a woman died before her husband, she was generally left with squat, and the husband's material wealth went to the closest male relative. A woman could also only be divorced if, and only if, the husband could prove she had committed adultery (something that worked both ways). In other words, some fat old merchant can't marry teenage girls and abandon them on the street when they get too old. Also men and women were stoned for pre-marital sex, unless they then got married...and men could be stoned for raping a woman. Of course, the woman was also stoned if she didn't try and scream for help, but eh...


While I disapprove of the laws in the Torah, they were a large, progressive step for their time period. Doesn't mean we should follow them today, but they're definitely important historically.
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Old 02-27-02   #5
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answer to a question

Women can have faith in the Lord by being a Christian because they can know that the bible has been written by man (humans) and interpreted over and over by man. Therefor we can know that the bible isn't perfect... Only God is perfect... Your mention of women not being able to speak in church... well as you notice alot of what occured in the bible took place in the middle east where there were and still are many restrictions on women... again this is man, not God who makes these rules. I have alot of faith in the Lord. It does not mean I have complete faith in the people who interpret for the Lord. ie; dictating right and wrongs, when the lord "speaks" to people. That's where our inherent ability to decern comes in.

Last edited by haomdai; 02-27-02 at 19:32.
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Old 02-27-02   #6
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what the hell!?

where the heck is every body??
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Old 02-27-02   #7
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Old 02-27-02   #8
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awww

aww you like me you really like me!
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Old 02-28-02   #9
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Christian Women

"I was wondering how a woman can willfully join and stick with a faith that tells her she is the lowest thing out there. Afterall, the Bible blames all of our problems on Eve, the first woman, so therefore we must be the terrible gender, right? It makes no sense to me. Parts of the Bible tell us that a woman is not even allowed to ask a question in Church, nor is she to be given any rights, even the right to her own job (this has changed in the past two centuries due to new feminist beliefs)"

This really isn't a good understanding of the bible. In these passages, you must consider the number of times these commands were repeated. If they were one time incodents, such as women being told not to speak, then you should also give consideration to other things, such as the problems of the day. When Paul wrote these, theologins have reason to believe there was a specific cult targeted for women. Paul was trying to safe guard the church. This would then mean women are not subject to silence. This would also not make sense, as they would not be allowed to aks for prayer or even sing.

"Ancient Judiac law stated that a woman who lost her virginity before marriage was to be stoned to death, and if she were raped that she was to marry her rapist (if she was single, if she were married or betrothed she was to die)"

I can't seem to find this passage in my bible, though I know what your refering to. Could you please direct me to it?

The parts of the New Testement that mention the lowiness of women were not even stated by Jesus, instead by Jewish men who claimed that God had spoken to them.

Give example of this, please.

Then there is always the possiblity that the Judiac/Christian faiths are meant to have a female side, but have been written out. When the names of pagan deities have been changed from female to male (when there is evidence that the people from this time were worshiping Goddesses over Gods in that time) it would not surprise me that perhaps Elohim was meant to be female, but to save face past translators (or even the first author) made the gender male. Or that Christians were given the Goddess Sophia as a mother, but in an attempt to seperate the perescuted Christians of Rome from the new only religion of the Empire they wrote her out.

I have heard the argument that the bible even displays a sense of
femininity to God. I find this hard to believe, however, as God of the bible seems to have a very masculine nature.

As far as your claim about Elohim, this is not true. This title is an idiomof a plural magnitude or majesty. Such examples of this title being used is Gen 1:1 which will not neccesarily use the name itself.

Now, the goddess sophia. When would you propose that Christians were given this goddess? After all, they had not been around for long, at this time. I also don't see how writing sophia out does anything for Christians in the eye's of Pagan Rome.

The need for a mother figure in religion is so perdominate that the Catholics even made a normal woman imortal simply to fill that empty role. But she is not a Goddess, she was just a good woman who never even had sex.

I don't want to make this any longer, but can anyone answer my question?

I am not Catholic, and I would argue that after having Jesus, she engaged in a normal sexual life. There was no reason for her not to have.

"Well, first off, the letters (all of the New Testament except the Gospels, in other words) are mostly bull crap, with no real support behind them. As you said, Jesus lent no support to them, and actually they contradict a lot of her messages."

Of course Jesus didn't refer to them... they were written after his presence on earth. Also, you should support this statment of contradictions.
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Old 03-03-02   #10
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Re: Christian Women

Quote:
Originally posted by Left Theif
I am not Catholic, and I would argue that after having Jesus, she engaged in a normal sexual life. There was no reason for her not to have.

"Well, first off, the letters (all of the New Testament except the Gospels, in other words) are mostly bull crap, with no real support behind them. As you said, Jesus lent no support to them, and actually they contradict a lot of her messages."

Of course Jesus didn't refer to them... they were written after his presence on earth. Also, you should support this statment of contradictions.
nah i don't believe mary remained a virgin. i don't see why joseph or mary would abstain. unless they were told that mary would become holy if she were to be? nah don't think so.

i wonder what jesus [and god] would think of the bible?
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Old 03-03-02   #11
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Hah, they probably figure "Bad publicity is good publicity."

Think about it.
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Old 03-04-02   #12
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Is'nt it odd how almost every major religion and culture has oppressed women throughout history?

Why is that? I'm not frightened or intimitated by women?
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Old 03-04-02   #13
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Denalay - Not every major religion has oppressed women

Left Thief - Ok, to answer your combacks let me tell you this.

Number one, you want proof that the Bible tells women not speak in church? Why ask me? Why not ask a preacher at a Baptist or Luthern church why women can not be pastors. When I was a child I told my mother that not only did I want to be a pastor but that I thought we should go to church with a woman pastor. My MOTHER, who had not read as much of the Bible as her own daughter (by the time her own daughter, ie me, was in seventh grade) pulled out the exact same verse I am refering to.

The refereance to anceint Hewbrew law was to show the mind set the founders of Chirstianity, therefore, modern Chirstianity came from. Juduism was the most opressive of all ancient cultures and religions when it came to women. Even ancient Athens allowed a few women the same rights as men.

Elohim is a name translated from Hewbrew or Greek to English. It appears in the Old Testement as Lord God. Yahweh appears as Lord. It is a popular theory among scholars that Elohim was perhaps the female SIDE OF GOD, just as the New Testement Sophia was the female SIDE OF GOD. I am not saying that they were seperate deities, but that they were the mothering side of a deity worshiped by these people.

You refer to Rome as pagan. What is the formal name of the Catholic Church? It's the ROMAN Chatholic church. Do you wonder how that happened? Chirstians brag about how the Romans persecuted them shortly after Jesus died (I know this because I sat through and paid close attention to church sermons, sunday school lessons and Bible studies for thirteen years of my life and had a greater understanding of it than anyone I know did at that age).

The early Christian believers were tortured by the Empire. That is in all history books. Then, when Rome was going through a hard time, an emperor made it legal. After that legalization, it took Christianity less than a century to catch on and become to sole religion of the Empire. The quote I have in my signature was made by St. Augustine, one of the founders of the Roman Catholice Church, he was a Roman citizen. But he did not believe until after it was made legal.

When I put forward the theory that the new Christians at the time wrote out the female aspect I meant among other things. Like I said, the Empire went from completly pagan (and completly anti-Christain) to completly Christain in less than a century (if you want I can get you the exact years). How could a government go from condemning a religion so badly to accepting it so much so quickily? The population of the Empire would have rebelled. They would have had to come up with some reason why these first Chirstains were wrong.

Now I feel that you got what I meant with this post wrong. I did not mean to debate Chirstianity, I am trying to get opinions. I already know what the Bible says. I have read it many times. I was giving the people whoes opinion I asked my reasons for why I find it odd for a woman to belong to this faith willingly. I honeslty care to know why some one can over look all of that.

Despite the fact that you are not going to listen I will give you the source for MOST of my information from the first post. It's a book called "When God Was A Woman" written by Merlin Stone. There are too many things from the Bible, this book, and other places to quote. Howver, this book has most of the quotes and information I used so if you are interested check it out.
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Old 03-04-02   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denalay
Is'nt it odd how almost every major religion and culture has oppressed women throughout history?

Why is that? I'm not frightened or intimitated by women?

Women are physically weaker in most areas. It's pretty much as simple as that.
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Old 03-05-02   #15
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Ancient Judiac law stated that a woman who lost her virginity before marriage was to be stoned to death, and if she were raped that she was to marry her rapist (if she was single, if she were married or betrothed she was to die)"

I can't seem to find this passage in my bible, though I know what your refering to. Could you please direct me to it?



Seems my response to this was wrong if you want to find out about the way women are to be treated, look at Det. 22:13-30. 23-25 or something deals with a married woman's rape.


Dark Messiah and Denalay:
No every religion through out history has not found women weak and therefore repressed them. We view women as physically weaker than men because in our culture it is true. However, if women in our culture were bred for strength and men bred to sit at home and take care of children our view would be drastically different.

That book, When God Was A Woman, explains these cultures and I have seen many a History Channel special on women cultures.
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Old 03-05-02   #16
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:fro: if god got Marie pregnant and she was already married. Hasn't god just gone against his own commandments? And in so doing hasn't he just condemend himself to hell as well as Marie?

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Old 03-05-02   #17
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good point...but it's mary dear...
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Old 03-05-02   #18
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sorry i'm a really bad speller some times. it's one of my down falls. Hope you don't hold it against me.
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Old 03-05-02   #19
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Dueteronomy... or however you spell it... stone your children if they are bad and go against your word.... stone the women... stone the whole damn world... hehe... it was one of the chapters taken out of the modern bible.... though it was a part of the original...

The Sumerians recognized womens rights as did the Babylonians... Women were free citizens in thier cultures... if you were not a Hebrew living in Babylon that is ... heh
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Old 03-05-02   #20
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hey at least some of the stupid ones are killing them selves off. Ever heard of the darwin awards?
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