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Reload this Page Reason why the universe needs no creator
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Old 07-01-01   #21
darthstarscream
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I agree with the last guy the term creator is not wrong exactly but it implies to much.

The idea I was trying to get across with my last post that maybe I didn't articulate well is this:

If the universe is an "explosion" or a reaction of some kind it requires an initial sum of enegy equal to that of the reaction.

However potential energy does not change its form without another force acting apon it, and as there IS nothing else it can only be assumed that that potential energy somehow changed itself. That it chose to change itself and that implies will.
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Old 07-01-01   #22
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A really good topic to read on this is the Primary and Secondry Factor!! It will state that for the start there had to be SOMETHING!! then from there you get the secondry affects! and so on and so on. It talks about the big bang and a creator. I mean how do we know that this isn't all one big deception?
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Old 07-03-01   #23
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Aaargh!

I see all these people trying to make insightful religious arguments with uncapitalized run-on sentences that go on for miles. Have mercy and stop the pain!


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Old 07-03-01   #24
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ok, i think everyones in agreement that we got here one of two ways:Creator or Big Bang. Either way you look at it, something came from nothing:a god from nowhere or a gigantic explosion from no where. However, a god is a spiritual thing, while an explosion is a physical thing. Physical things rely on logical statments. Something can't come from nothing. However, we know almost nothing of the 'spiritual world'.
But for an explosion to take place, there must be something physical to explode. There's no logical reason to think that could happen unless you only wish to push away from the idea of a creator. I agree with Fallen Star about the whole nothingness stuff. I've believed that for a while. Why dosent a whole world and universe begin everytime there's an huge explosion? What about the Atomic bomb we dropped on Japan? I bet that was pretty big? Besides, if we were all evolving, we would continue to do so and soon in a habitat there would be only one species. Everything would evolve into the best possible species. I'm people will try (and may succeed) at proving me wrong, but that's the way i look at it.
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Old 07-03-01   #25
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Re: blueboy....

so it sucks to have to go over the same old boring stuff with people that haven't been around as long. i try and avoid it now but oh well. i like the topic so some responses to this tried and beaten topic.

it's kind of hard to respond to a post like fallen star because he uses the same reasoning as most christians do."something says it's a certain way so it must be" kinda logic. but anyways...

Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~

everything has a a purpose or reason for if it hadnt any, it would have been destryoed its just the basic way things work, so anything that is currently existing must have a purpose and reason,
i have no idea why you think this is true. in observing the way things work at a micro level, you can say something has purpose. however, this goes back to the first post i made on this thread. throw two things together in a virgin space and they would interact regardless of purpose or reason. purpose would be birthed though, but not in the sense you infer in your post. one object would serve the purpose of defining the other. that doesn't mean in anyway that one thing was created for that reason. it would just be a side effect to "being in existence".

the thing is i don't think your were thinking in these logic terms anyways. but my point is this quote here sounds like a christian saying god said so so it must be this way. i don't know where you get the idea that everything has reason. nothing at all points to that. what is more absurd is that anything without it would be destroyed, i've never heard of anything to even substantiate such a claim. and i don't see how you think that is the basic way things are. where did you get that idea. ive been observing my surroundings for quite some time and this idea you have is based on faith just as much as the christian god is. so you pulled something out of the air and base the rest of your post on it. so your post is completely based on faith. and faith is ILLOGICAL.



Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~

i think it does make an argument for a higher power for you cannot go from 0 to 1 without adding "one", that "one" is indeed a higher power, is that logical enough for ya?),
well actually there is no logic in that statement. first off, who said we were at zero? and secondly if we were, why would the cause of addition be a "higher power"? (that's in quotations because im not really sure what you mean by higher power) and if the higher power was here before the "addition of the one" then we were obviously not at zero. that is called logic. so i think the most logical thing to say is that we have never been at zero.


Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~

You cannot go from a zero existence to a nothing ness of nothing to everything and anything without a causing force, or maybe you say that everything just was here, that thats the way it just it, well than who made it that way, why is it just here, indeed their has to have been a point where nothing of nothing was here, or anywhere, ),
no, indeed it doesn't need to be that way. again you argue like a christian. "it must be this way just because". and again that is faith which in turn is ILLOGICAL. im not sure if english is a second language to you, but this post was rather hard to understand. i think you are trying to say that we cannot go from nothing to something when you say "from zero existence to a nothing ness of nothing to everything and anything" without a cause. again this is illogical because we are already here. and if you say we are here because of a CAUSE, then the cause existed before we did, which again means we've never been at zero. and because we can apply your same logic for existence to the "cause" we wind up in an infinity of actions-reactions. which leaves us with only one choice, something is here for no reason at all. saying that the something is a higher power is absurd. there is no logic in it.


Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~

but if you say that 1 is where we started how can you logical explain that 2 is where we will go next, theres no logical explantion for skipping over zero, but if u base your assumption on that it was than you must consider the fact that another step may be skipped, ),
i don't explain it. and i don't need to because i never said we were going to two. maybe we are at one. and we've always been there and we always will be. and i'm not sure why you are reffering to steps. agian you make inferences that we are going somewhere or that we are evolving but that is just like saying zeus is over in jupiter with thunderbolts making sure everything is fine and dandy.
Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~

everything is a reaction to an action(another logical statment for ya),
the only one so far. the funny thing is you don't apply it to the rest of your post.



Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
purpose and reason are two totally differnt concepts, and you spoke of them as one, forgive me for i in this very post did so myself, but everythint has a reason, a reason for being, howver not everything has a purpose, yet most things do...if their was no reason and purpose(forgive me again for using them as one) in anything, then their would be no reason or purpose in everything which is simply not true....
again you make irrational statements and feel they are merited for no reason. how is it you know this isn't true again?


Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
purpose for many things are not logical at all, for as you said "creators, gods, us, existence, all have the same chance of being that something that exist with out purpose or reason." now this is not logical,
why not? that statement has more reason then your whole post. ive already explained it but im sure you still don't understand. im begining to think you have a twisted sense of what is logical.

Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
however it would be logical for their to be a puprose or reason, for that preety much is logic right there,
no that is not logic, saying it is doesn't explain it either. you do that quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
any back to beign off of logic, many things are not logical, it is not logical that one higher power could create all of somthing from less then nothing, however that had to have happen, ...
no it didn't. candy was what made existence, it has to be. that is what your statement sounds like.


[quote]Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
now back to logic
[quote]

can you see me smiling


Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
as i said u cannot go from 0 to 1 without adding 1, without somthing their would be nothing and everything less, it is only logical that somthing could be the variable, in which created the concept, .....we have figured out whats in a molecule, weve figured out whats in an atom, weve figured out that everythign is made up of matter....now how the hell did matter enter the "picture"? it wasnt just their for nothing is just ever "there", so the only was it can be explained is for their to be a higher power, or maybe just another power, some existing force, or additive, some variable, somthing,.......or nothing and everything less than......
again it's not worth the rebuttal because you make many baseless assumptions and then base your statements on those assumptions. which make your statements baseless.

Quote:
Originally posted by ~:fAllen sTar :~
i hope i did not come across as patronizing, i know i was alittle sarcastic but, i just wnted to show you that you shouldnt say im not logical when your very statemnt also disagreed with the boundries of logic, i use boundries because thats what logic is, boundires can be broken and logic specifically isjust somthing restraing us from opening our minds up to the illogical, even though i do not agree with your statement, it is well seen and it made me think, and i can never say you are truley wrong for that in its very nature would be false, so no hard feelings, i hope i wasnt to much of an asshole...
unfortunately this part of the post, although in good heart, doesn't belong here. my statement was logical. yours was based on assumptions. i think you don't understand the concepts though, and that's why you say you don't agree. drop assumptions and then look at your world without bias and then you have logic. saying god put me here because he must have and so i must have purpose, although comforting to the ego, is not in anyways merited.
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Old 07-03-01   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by QuantumGravity
Just a thought by your logic if we need "a creator" to create the initial matter/energy, then we need something to create "the creator", which is absurd. If it is possible for a creator to just be then it is also possible for matter to just be.


thank you
see that is a reasonable statement.
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Old 07-03-01   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Augustwolfe
I think "creator" is a concept in need of revision or possibly complete eradication from our vocabulary. It smacks of myth, which all religions consist of and completely rely upon.
i don't mind the word creator. higher power however is the stinky one. i think of creator as an intial action that caused a reaction to this specific part of existence we live in. conscious or not it would still be a creator.

Quote:
Originally posted by Augustwolfe
Somewhere in the universe there must be a master intelligence, or intelligent first cause that we are emanations of, and that we join ourselves back to at some point in the future. I do not discount reincarnation, nor do I endorse it completely, but there are some interesting ideas there for those who have delved into it to any degree. .
i'm not saying it isn't but i sure don't think it "must".


Quote:
Originally posted by Augustwolfe
There seems to be a little common patch where all philosophies and religions "touch" and it is in this little place that we will find some of the answers.
ive heard people say this before. but this place where they all "touch" is just a place where the same tendency's in every human race was manifested. there are universals in religions but there is also universals in everything that has to do with humans. and by universal i mean common ground. every culture has rituals for burials, and marriages, every culture has religion, and each of these relgions have alot of the same concepts. because they came about by the same lack of security and need for ego boosting that's been in every human in every culture. i don't think there are any answers where these religions touch. just proof that humans everywhere tend to feel the same and need the same things. i think it's when you drop these tendency's and drop religion altogether that you can come up with some answers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Augustwolfe
I'm afraid it's just a little too easy to simply be an atheist without exhausting considerable time in arriving at that conclusion. This "creator" idea is too christian sounding and carries a connotation that induces agnosticism in people.
What Thinkest Thou?
i agree. alot of people do say they're athiest but alot of times that just means "im not religious." which isn't what atheism is.
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Old 07-03-01   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by hiddeninshadows
ok, i think everyones in agreement that we got here one of two ways:Creator or Big Bang.

i don't agree with that.[


Quote:
Originally posted by hiddeninshadows
Either way you look at it, something came from nothing:a god from nowhere or a gigantic explosion from no where. However, a god is a spiritual thing, while an explosion is a physical thing. Physical things rely on logical statments. Something can't come from nothing. However, we know almost nothing of the 'spiritual world'. .
no, because something might have always been here. and that something might have been interacting with itself since forever. as far as the "spiritual world" goes, it's the same as pointing to god. they lie in the same category. faith and myth,

Quote:
Originally posted by hiddeninshadows
But for an explosion to take place, there must be something physical to explode. There's no logical reason to think that could happen unless you only wish to push away from the idea of a creator. I agree with Fallen Star about the whole nothingness stuff. I've believed that for a while. Why dosent a whole world and universe begin everytime there's an huge explosion? What about the Atomic bomb we dropped on Japan? I bet that was pretty big? Besides, if we were all evolving, we would continue to do so and soon in a habitat there would be only one species. Everything would evolve into the best possible species. I'm people will try (and may succeed) at proving me wrong, but that's the way i look at it.
unfortunately everyone keeps referring to the big bang and it doesn't seem like they know much about it. also evolution is a very shotty theory, but most importanlty it's a theory period.
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Old 07-03-01   #29
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i think you wanted someone to address this besides quantum.
Quote:
Originally posted by darthstarscream
If the universe is a reaction there must be have been an action.

Action requires will. Will denotes inteligence.

Just a thought.
action does not require will like quantum showed you. and even if the action that caused the reaction that is existence, was willfull it proves nothing. because will is also a reaction. and in all likelyhood so is intelligence. of course that is off the subject but either way your "will" or your "intelligence" would also need it's cause. proving nothing.
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Old 07-04-01   #30
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"alot of people do say they're athiest but alot of times that just means "im not religious." which isn't what atheism is. "

Then what is atheism? Belief in nothing? In the Merriam Webster Dictionary it says "one who denies the existence of god"
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Old 07-04-01   #31
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Ok, Blue Boy, what do you believe in?
As for the Big Bang theory, I agree with you, its "shotty"

Quote:
no, because something might have always been here. and that something might have been interacting with itself since forever. as far as the "spiritual world" goes, it's the same as pointing to god. they lie in the same category. faith and myth,
Yes, I directly pointed to God. That was the whole point. That physical things have rules and laws whereas spiritual things don't. Therefore, you are correct when you said:
Quote:
something might have always been here. and that something might have been interacting with itself since forever.
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