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Old 06-11-01   #1
QuantumGravity
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Reason why the universe needs no creator

First of all id like to say im not saying this proves that there definatly isnt a creator but that one is not needed to explain the exsitance of the universe.

Say every universe started with a "big bang" and ended in a "big crunch" and after a big crunch a "big bang" happened. The chances of the rules of physics being able to give rise to humans is quite low, and the rules seem to be pretty organised suggesting a creator made everything, how ever my theory is the only reason the rules seem to be perfect is because if they wernt people wouldnt exist so we wouldnt ask this question :-) . I think this shows that there is no need for a creator.

I just thought id share this insight with everyone
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Old 06-11-01   #2
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Old 06-13-01   #3
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Well what happend with your fantasies worl when you forgot it- big crush maybe. And what about inspiration can we call it big bang. I like to say it is no important to find a creator but it is important to became creator.
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Old 06-13-01   #4
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well i think there are alot more reasons for not having to have a creator. i was thinking the other day though. say you got a section of space that was completely void and then got two different objects or peices of matter that had never ever interacted. then you threw them in this void that you have. regardless of wether you know what the hell your doing the two objects would end up interacting with eachother and the rules and laws of those interactions would be birthed regardless of wether you knew what the fuck was going on. i don't think i explained myself well but that is one of the other reasons existence doesn't need a creator.
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Old 06-13-01   #5
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Blueboy you crazy philosophicalized heathen. Dammit son, I am convinced you suck on a bottle of turpentine before you make your over-the-top scientificized heathen posts. Jub Jub thinks you need to take a big long shit. Then, you can hopefully free yer mind of all them thangs them wool suited dudes up there in them institutes of higher learnin' filled your cranium with. Let me say this as far as your theory is concerned. DOINK.
Yep, I said DOINK. Let me put it this way. In order to have the laws of cause and effect you have to have something to cause "cause and effect" don't ya? Hell son, even a rube like me knows ya don't get something from nuthin'. Ain't that right boy?


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Old 06-13-01   #6
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but if one had one which had not, and added that which he ought, and to it he brought, another of sorts, to that which had not, would not that which not had have two things inside, that would change this with not to one that did have?
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Old 06-14-01   #7
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so maybe there was something in the begining that was something then if you put something and another something togethter they would mess with each other then the somethings would create other things then you would have something to begin with and if you cant get anything from nothing then where did god come from(philosphically speaking)
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Old 06-16-01   #8
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Universe simplified

"In the beginning there was nothing; then it exploded" pretty much answeres the question to the begingings of the univese to the creation of gods.

End of discussion
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Old 06-16-01   #9
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Yeah, great answer.
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Old 06-16-01   #10
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Re: Reason why the universe needs no creator

Quote:
Originally posted by QuantumGravity
Say every universe started with a "big bang" and ended in a "big crunch" and after a big crunch a "big bang" happened. The chances of the rules of physics being able to give rise to humans is quite low, and the rules seem to be pretty organised suggesting a creator made everything,
All i got from that is that universes expand and contract constantly throughout time, and that human existence is highly unlikely according to the basic laws of phsyics. I'm agnostic personally, but if anything, your paragraph only bolsters the probability of our existence being of miraculous nature by a higher power we cannot understand (read as: God.)

how ever my theory is the only reason the rules seem to be perfect is because if they wernt people wouldnt exist so we wouldnt ask this question :-) . I think this shows that there is no need for a creator.

last year i fucked some girl i met at a club. the next day i worried if i caught something. Had i not met her, i wouldn't have fucked her, thus, wouldn't have worried about catching anything. that doesn't change whether or not she was diseased.

maybe i'm missing something...
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Old 06-16-01   #11
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No offense intended to Alliance Of Concerned Men. But the example you used of the girl you fucked isnt really the same as my argument. I was just saying that an argument used to prove a creator is needed is how perfect the conditions of the universe are so that we can exist, what i said was that if they wernt perfect we weouldnt exist. i think you will see this isnt the same as your example
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Old 06-16-01   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by QuantumGravity
No offense intended to Alliance Of Concerned Men. But the example you used of the girl you fucked isnt really the same as my argument. I was just saying that an argument used to prove a creator is needed is how perfect the conditions of the universe are so that we can exist, what i said was that if they wernt perfect we weouldnt exist. i think you will see this isnt the same as your example
None taken, but actually, it's exactly the same. If conditions of the universe were different and we didn't exist, it wouldn't change whether or not there was a creator, we just wouldn't be around to bicker about it.
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Old 06-16-01   #13
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If the universe is a reaction there must be have been an action.

Action requires will. Will denotes inteligence.

Just a thought.

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Old 06-17-01   #14
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Actions do not require will. A ball will fall towards the earth wether someone wills it to or not
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Old 06-17-01   #15
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In all likelihood, we are far too unintelligent to comprehend the creation of our own universe. We know that as we learn, there is so much more we have yet to learn. While it may be incorrect that there is a God or a Satan, it does not immediately assume that the primordial soup theory is correct.

It can be just as likely there is some great intelligence or "higher power" that is responsible for all that we are and all that we know either directly or indirectly.

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Old 06-18-01   #16
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yes very good point from all but...your reason for needing no god constitutes in their being some from of mater already....ive saidit a thousand times in every thread such as this one:...without somthing ot create the slightest bit of matter there would be nothing, no less than nothing, its not even conceivable, there woulnt be a concept to look upon, complete nothingness only less, everything less then empty, sterotypes of this include hte color all balck, or all white, but no ...no color what so ever, everything less than blank, you see without their to be some higher power to create a concept, a piece of matter so that a big bang may have formed, their nothing, try to imagine yourself as no more, as no longer able to think......you can not, it cant be dont no human can possibly imagine oneself to be thinking nevermore, for in the act of thinking you cannot think you are thinking and can never truley expeirence yourself not a part of the "picure" and infact without a higher to create a space, their would be nothing, this concept is hte hardest to conceive because we have always known their to be somthing, so the universe needs a creator, if it hadn't had one ther would nothing, nothing, nothing, and less........
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Old 06-20-01   #17
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that last statement is illogical. although the stuff about nothing existing is true, it doesn't make an argument for having a higher power. something exist for no reason at all. that could be absolutely everything that is existing for no reason at all. or maybe it is a creator or a god. maybe it's a concept. the possibilities are endless. creators, gods, us, existence, all have the same chance of being that something that exist with out purpose or reason. because of the vanity that seems to plague this existence, i think it's us and our material surroundings but i may be wrong.

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Old 06-20-01   #18
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blueboy....

anyone who skips over this..i hate you, it took so long to type...


forgive me blueboy for i donnot see how it is illogical, everything has a a purpose or reason for if it hadnt any, it would have been destryoed its just the basic way things work, so anything that is currently existing must have a purpose and reason, it may be minor neverthe less it still exits...i think it does make an argument for a higher power for you cannot go from 0 to 1 without adding "one", that "one" is indeed a higher power, is that logical enough for ya? You cannot go from a zero existence to a nothing ness of nothing to everything and anything without a causing force, or maybe you say that everything just was here, that thats the way it just it, well than who made it that way, why is it just here, indeed their has to have been a point where nothing of nothing was here, or anywhere, but if you say that 1 is where we started how can you logical explain that 2 is where we will go next, theres no logical explantion for skipping over zero, but if u base your assumption on that it was than you must consider the fact that another step may be skipped, listen everything is a reaction to an action(another logical statment for ya), purpose and reason are two totally differnt concepts, and you spoke of them as one, forgive me for i in this very post did so myself, but everythint has a reason, a reason for being, howver not everything has a purpose, yet most things do...if their was no reason and purpose(forgive me again for using them as one) in anything, then their would be no reason or purpose in everything which is simply not true.... but lets get off the whole logical thing...
for many things are not logical at all, for as you said "creators, gods, us, existence, all have the same chance of being that something that exist with out purpose or reason." now this is not logical, however it would be logical for their to be a puprose or reason, for that preety much is logic right there, any back to beign off of logic, many things are not logical, it is not logical that one higher power could create all of somthing from less then nothing, however that had to have happen, now back to logic...as i said u cannot go from 0 to 1 without adding 1, without somthing their would be nothing and everything less, it is only logical that somthing could be the variable, in which created the concept, .....we have figured out whats in a molecule, weve figured out whats in an atom, weve figured out that everythign is made up of matter....now how the hell did matter enter the "picture"? it wasnt just their for nothing is just ever "there", so the only was it can be explained is for their to be a higher power, or maybe just another power, some existing force, or additive, some variable, somthing,.......or nothing and everything less than...

i hope i did not come across as patronizing, i know i was alittle sarcastic but, i just wnted to show you that you shouldnt say im not logical when your very statemnt also disagreed with the boundries of logic, i use boundries because thats what logic is, boundires can be broken and logic specifically isjust somthing restraing us from opening our minds up to the illogical, even though i do not agree with your statement, it is well seen and it made me think, and i can never say you are truley wrong for that in its very nature would be false, so no hard feelings, i hope i wasnt to much of an asshole...
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Old 06-21-01   #19
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Just a thought by your logic if we need "a creator" to create the initial matter/energy, then we need something to create "the creator", which is absurd. If it is possible for a creator to just be then it is also possible for matter to just be.


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Old 06-22-01   #20
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I think "creator" is a concept in need of revision or possibly complete eradication from our vocabulary. It smacks of myth, which all religions consist of and completely rely upon.
Somewhere in the universe there must be a master intelligence, or intelligent first cause that we are emanations of, and that we join ourselves back to at some point in the future. I do not discount reincarnation, nor do I endorse it completely, but there are some interesting ideas there for those who have delved into it to any degree.
There seems to be a little common patch where all philosophies and religions "touch" and it is in this little place that we will find some of the answers.
I'm afraid it's just a little too easy to simply be an atheist without exhausting considerable time in arriving at that conclusion. This "creator" idea is too christian sounding and carries a connotation that induces agnosticism in people.
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