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Old 08-04-03   #61
Lillith
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You posted at the same time as me, which makes my post seem like an orphan.

Anyway, what I find interesting is that the main theme here seems to be about gay MEN. Whenever any guy here mentions this issue it's about men. You do realize gay women also get married, right? Hmm wait, you do realize women really ARE gay because they're in love with another women, right? And that it's not just to fulfill a male fantasy?
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Old 08-04-03   #62
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*Smacks the orphan*

Yeha I know that but gay men are funnier. They make better comedians and some overact more than most women could ever possably do.
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Old 08-04-03   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lillith
You posted at the same time as me, which makes my post seem like an orphan.

Anyway, what I find interesting is that the main theme here seems to be about gay MEN. Whenever any guy here mentions this issue it's about men. You do realize gay women also get married, right? Hmm wait, you do realize women really ARE gay because they're in love with another women, right? And that it's not just to fulfill a male fantasy?

True - I have gay women friends who are just as much committed to each other as most of the straight couples I know - If not more!
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Old 08-04-03   #64
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Originally Posted by RedMeat
*Smacks the orphan*

Yeha I know that but gay men are funnier. They make better comedians and some overact more than most women could ever possably do.
Please don't tell me I never overact.
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Old 08-04-03   #65
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Please don't tell me I never overact.
Ok I wont.
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Old 08-04-03   #66
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society still says gay is wrong
The 2003 Gallup Poll shows you to be, once again, completely wrong.

2003 Gallup Poll

Here are some lovely quotes:

"Finally, the new Gallup Poll showed a small majority, 54 percent, of Americans say that they believe homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, with 43 percent disagreeing. In 1982, the first year that Gallup asked a question establishing Americans' personal feelings about homosexuality, only 34 percent said they believed it was an acceptable lifestyle."

"The new poll also shows that the country is evenly split, 49 percent in favor and 49 percent against, on allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally form civil unions, giving them some of the legal rights of marriage. This is the strongest support to date in favor of gay and lesbian relationship recognition. In a Gallup Poll from May 2002, 46 percent of Americans favored civil unions, while 51 percent opposed."

Society, which is defined mostly by its majorities, says being gay is an acceptable lifestyle, and their acceptance only continues to increase. In only one year, favor for legalizing civil unions increased 3 percent.

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it just wont eve rhappen..
If the definition of marriage remains a state issue, it very well could. Consider Massachusetts: "Among those between 18 and 39 years old, 62 percent supported legalizing same-sex marriage, and 33 percent opposed it. For those between 40 and 64 years of age, 53 percent voiced support, while 42 percent said they opposed legalizing gay marriages."

Support for Gay Marriage
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Old 08-04-03   #67
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then sooner or later we have to allow incestual marriage, man/animal marriage, 13 year olds getting married and Polygamy.
Ah, the slippery slope argument, the last ditch effort of someone whose long given up on well-reasoned, factually based arguments in favor of hysteria.

In order to make your case, in terms of a slipperly slope argument, you can't just claim A (gay marriage) will lead to B (marriage based on polygamy, incest, bestiality, pedophilia); you must prove how the acceptance of A must logically necessitate the acceptance of B. Not easy to do since polygamy and the others are forms of marriage both structurally and morally different than gay marriage. But, since it seems such an important argument for your case, please show us why A must logically lead to B.

If you're having trouble, this site might help:

The Mechanisms of Slippery Slope

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it wont happen, typcally i HATE Bush but im actually glad hes trying to get Congress to define the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman
Ignorance does make strange bedfellows. Anyway, you would actually want to un-democratize the issue of gay marriage? Why choose the cowardly legal path of changing the constitution? If you're so confident that the public will never massively support gay marriage, then why not let it remain in the hands of the voting public?
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Old 08-04-03   #68
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not to mention the fact that marriage is defined through religious contexts, to let gays (which is against most religions to begin with) get married would not only weaken and tarnish the marriage but the religion itself
Oh please, it is heterosexuals that have tarnished marriage: a 54 percent divorce rate, shows like "Married by America" and "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" treating marriage like it's a tacky prize. Religion is no better, considering the fact that some religions deem polygamy, which you oppose, a divine right, and the Catholic Church judging the validity of marriages based on if an impotent husband can squeeze the tiniest bit of splooge out of his prick. Gays can't tarnish marriage: it's already been rendered meaningless by the straights and the religious leaders who've used it for purposes of status or entertainment.

And in case you didn't know, marriage in the United States is legally a secular institution, not a religious one. That's why atheists can get married, and why you don't need a minister to legalize your union. You can get a marriage license at a government office.

Last edited by asd; 08-04-03 at 18:38.
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Old 08-04-03   #69
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Originally Posted by asd


Ignorance does make strange bedfellows. Anyway, you would actually want to un-democratize the issue of gay marriage? Why choose the cowardly legal path of changing the constitution? If you're so confident that the public will never massively support gay marriage, then why not let it remain in the hands of the voting public?

Excellent point!
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Old 08-04-03   #70
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I think people are getting confused between religion and politics, as usual. Civil marriages are necessary between gay couples for legal, medical and civil liberties. Why a gay couple would want a spiritual ceremony, blessed by any religion thats structure rejects homosexuals, I just don't know. You can't change a religion to suit what you think it should be, you find a religion/church that suits or create your own.
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Old 08-04-03   #71
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Originally Posted by asd
Oh please, it is heterosexuals that have tarnished marriage: a 54 percent divorce rate, shows like "Married by America" and "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire" treating marriage like it's a tacky prize. Religion is no better, considering the fact that some religions deem polygamy, which you oppose, a diving right, and the Catholic Church judging the validity of marriages based on if an impotent husband can squeeze the tiniest bit of splooge out of his prick. Gays can't tarnish marriage: it's already been rendered meaningless by the straights and the religious leaders who've used it for purposes of status or entertainment.

And in case you didn't know, marriage in the United States is legally a secular institution, not a religious one. That's why atheists can get married, and why you don't need a minister to legalize your union. You can get a marriage license at a government office.

*Applauds* Well done, brilliant! The presumption that "gay marriages may make a mockery of marriage" is utterly absurd, as precisely pointed out by your post. The divorce rates are incredible to say the least, second, third or even forth marriages are acceptable as the "norm" these days. Never have I seen it as testament to any true devotion in the manner of body, mind and soul to your chosen life partner.
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Old 08-04-03   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulfull
I think people are getting confused between religion and politics, as usual. Civil marriages are necessary between gay couples for legal, medical and civil liberties. Why a gay couple would want a spiritual ceremony, blessed by any religion thats structure rejects homosexuals, I just don't know. You can't change a religion to suit what you think it should be, you find a religion/church that suits or create your own.
Completly agree with ya there :jolly:
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Old 08-04-03   #73
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Originally Posted by Soulfull
I think people are getting confused between religion and politics, as usual. Civil marriages are necessary between gay couples for legal, medical and civil liberties. Why a gay couple would want a spiritual ceremony, blessed by any religion thats structure rejects homosexuals, I just don't know. You can't change a religion to suit what you think it should be, you find a religion/church that suits or create your own.

That is a little bit ridiculous and not to mention judgmental. What if your religion is precisely that which rejects such a union? Why should a gay couple be denied the right to have their union celebrated in exactly the same manner as a hetero couple? Why should theirs only be seen as a legal matter and not a spiritual matter? Religion and politics are two sides of the same coin, and I imagine that is why. One finds very little spirituality in today's religions.
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Old 08-04-03   #74
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Why would you follow a church you don't have faith in?
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Old 08-04-03   #75
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A religion is basically a structure of rules and beliefs. If you don't agree with the rules and beliefs why would you want to be spiritually united by them? I never said homosexuals shouldn't have every right to a spiritual union.
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Old 08-04-03   #76
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Originally Posted by Soulfull
Why would you follow a church you don't have faith in?

You misunderstood. Let's take Christianity. A gay couple, they are Christian. They believe in Jesus, but the church condemns their union (I'm going on speculation here; I have no idea what the Christian Church's stance is). Why should they be denied that? Just because some structural, patriarchal archaic system dictates that they are not really a union and refuses to grant them the same celebration a hetero couple could enjoy. It's their faith, why should they create a new one?
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Old 08-04-03   #77
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Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. eg; My partner Beulah and I wish to be spiritually united under Islam........, can you see the impossibilities here?
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Old 08-04-03   #78
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Why a gay couple would want a spiritual ceremony, blessed by any religion thats structure rejects homosexuals, I just don't know. You can't change a religion to suit what you think it should be, you find a religion/church that suits or create your own.
If your specifically referring to Christianity, it depends on if your a fundamentalist, or if you believe that the bible, while inspired by god, was written by humans and is not infallible. Gays, as well as many others, have been able to reconcile their faiths and their personal, earthly lives by following not literal readings of specific passages in the bible but the greater themes presented throughout. Most people don't, even fundamentalists, follow all the numerous and seemingly pointless Levitical laws and hypocritically pick and choose which to preach and which to ignore (other than rabbis, how many actually obey the law prohibiting the shaving of the sides of one's head?).

Besides, the church is not the finally authority on anything. If I were religious, I'd adhere to the Protestant view that any biblical interpretation is ultimately left up to the individual and derived from his personal dealings with god.
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Old 08-04-03   #79
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Originally Posted by Soulfull
Why a gay couple would want a spiritual ceremony, blessed by any religion thats structure rejects homosexuals, I just don't know. You can't change a religion to suit what you think it should be, you find a religion/church that suits or create your own.

That is the specific point I was referring to. Asking why would they want to. Why shouldn't they be able to?
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Old 08-04-03   #80
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Originally Posted by asd
If your specifically referring to Christianity, it depends on if your a fundamentalist, or if you believe that the bible, while inspired by god, was written by humans and is not infallible. Gays, as well as many others, have been able to reconcile their faiths and their personal, earthly lives by following not literal readings of specific passages in the bible but the greater themes presented throughout. Most people don't, even fundamentalists, follow all the numerous and seemingly pointless Levitical laws and hypocritically pick and choose which to preach and which to ignore (other than rabbis, how many actually obey the law prohibiting the shaving of the sides of one's head?).

Besides, the church is not the finally authority on anything. If I were religious, I'd adhere to the Protestant view that any biblical interpretation is ultimately left up to the individual and derived from his personal dealings with god.
Yep, there you go, and you could live happily ever after. I agree.
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