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Old 04-12-06   #81
theburningbush
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Faid go back and look at my other posts I addressed the issues you already stated.
for example delta y = (delta x + e + n + v)/ (l + c)

e=enviroment
n=nurture
v=experince
l=logic
c=consequence

perhaps many other variables perhaps less this is what research is done for to determine what factors impact the decsion making process. the orgignal equation is flawed because y is not made up of emotion alone but many diffrent factors that make up the decsion making process. the orginal intent of the equation was to try and convey my idea as plainly as possible.

Sic

to me the diffrence in reactions and responses have to do with physical manifestation. if i add a stimulis (energy) to an enviroment energy must be released out of that enviroemnt (entropy) emotion theirfor under this logic can not be a reaction because no energy is released by emotion. as it can not be classfied as a reaction I need somthing else to describe emotion the best thing I can come up with response.



all stimuli are external
responses are internal
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Old 04-12-06   #82
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So if all stimuli have to be external, are thoughts stimuli? are feelings stimuli?. If the answer is no then i would ask you, what is the stimuli for the next action?...its in that order therefore you cant go straight from external stimuli from external reaction. Ultimately, yes, but not directly.

Also, y is more than emotion, yes, but thats not what is being argued here. Put anything into emotion's place and you still end with the same result-y being the stimuli of your so called reaction, z.

A man gets hit, therefore he feels pain, therefore he cries out. The man getting hit did not provoke him crying out, the pain did, which was directly made true by him getting hit.
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Old 04-12-06   #83
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Thank you Faid...well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burning bush
to me the diffrence in reactions and responses have to do with physical manifestation. if i add a stimulis (energy) to an enviroment energy must be released out of that enviroemnt (entropy) emotion theirfor under this logic can not be a reaction because no energy is released by emotion. as it can not be classfied as a reaction I need somthing else to describe emotion the best thing I can come up with response.
This "logic" gets thrown completely out the window because you're dealing with human beings here. There is a huge difference between a human being and an inanimate object. For one, the subjestivity is completely more profound...humans think, feel, have this whole metaphysical aspect about themselves. Even scientists don't deny the idea of the metaphysical (though they rarely discuss it...but there are metaphysical sciences out there. Paranormal science, even psychology to an extent, etc. etc.)

The point is, a human's reaction is entirely made up of responses. His whole being is one giant response. Therefore, reactions are synonymous with responses. Besides, how can one argue that an external force is more of determinate clause than internal forces? Force is force. And may the force be with you.
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Old 04-13-06   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
So if all stimuli have to be external, are thoughts stimuli? are feelings stimuli?. If the answer is no then i would ask you, what is the stimuli for the next action?...its in that order therefore you cant go straight from external stimuli from external reaction. Ultimately, yes, but not directly.

Also, y is more than emotion, yes, but thats not what is being argued here. Put anything into emotion's place and you still end with the same result-y being the stimuli of your so called reaction, z.

A man gets hit, therefore he feels pain, therefore he cries out. The man getting hit did not provoke him crying out, the pain did, which was directly made true by him getting hit.
you catch on fire you run around you then cry out

a factor not a stimuli you cant have the reaction without getting punched x cannot be 0
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Old 04-13-06   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theburningbush
you catch on fire you run around you then cry out

a factor not a stimuli you cant have the reaction without getting punched x cannot be 0
by that logic, x could also just be a factor. me getting hit is just a factor that influences my pain which is the real reason i cry out. You cant just have "factors," everything has to be qualified as either, stimuli or reaction. You cant have something happen, i.e. pain, and not have a result of it. I dont cry out every time i get hit, therefore getting hit is not crucial to the crying out. The pain inflicted is the "action" that produces my cries.
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Old 04-13-06   #86
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you were not his hard enough your example is irrelavent as pain is not emotion the expression and sensation of it is not voluntary your equation for your example is (delta x) / pain threshold = delta z
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Old 04-13-06   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theburningbush
you were not his hard enough your example is irrelavent as pain is not emotion the expression and sensation of it is not voluntary your equation for your example is (delta x) / pain threshold = delta z
Point being that i do not cry out every time i get hit, therefore getting hit doesnt directly affect crying out. Pain threshold is only relevant when combined with affecting the end result: crying out. So if you hit me softly i feel it, but i dont cry out. You hitting me was the stimuli for slight pain, which would then be the stimuli for me asking you "WTF"
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Old 04-13-06   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxx(sic)six
Thank you Faid...well said.



This "logic" gets thrown completely out the window because you're dealing with human beings here. There is a huge difference between a human being and an inanimate object. For one, the subjestivity is completely more profound...humans think, feel, have this whole metaphysical aspect about themselves. Even scientists don't deny the idea of the metaphysical (though they rarely discuss it...but there are metaphysical sciences out there. Paranormal science, even psychology to an extent, etc. etc.)

The point is, a human's reaction is entirely made up of responses. His whole being is one giant response. Therefore, reactions are synonymous with responses. Besides, how can one argue that an external force is more of determinate clause than internal forces? Force is force. And may the force be with you.
i agree that when looking at the internal all you have said is correct. a reaction however is a display of ones internal self in the external world. once you involve the external the dynmics of the indivdual shrink into those that are defined by society. there is no one that truly expresses there internal self, society could not function if we could. no that the dynmics have been restricted it becomes possible to fit a person into logical outcome
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Old 04-13-06   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
Point being that i do not cry out every time i get hit, therefore getting hit doesnt directly affect crying out. Pain threshold is only relevant when combined with affecting the end result: crying out. So if you hit me softly i feel it, but i dont cry out. You hitting me was the stimuli for slight pain, which would then be the stimuli for me asking you "WTF"
infulenced the reaction did not provoke the reaction again if i didnt hit you you wouldnt simply ask me wtf
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Old 04-15-06   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theburningbush
i agree that when looking at the internal all you have said is correct. a reaction however is a display of ones internal self in the external world. once you involve the external the dynmics of the indivdual shrink into those that are defined by society. there is no one that truly expresses there internal self, society could not function if we could. no that the dynmics have been restricted it becomes possible to fit a person into logical outcome
Again, you say things that don't hold sway symantically. "there is no one that truly expresses there internal self" WHA...? WHA...? I can't follow this. Even if society plays a factor on people, which it does, how does that get discredited from one's "internal self." If it's all we have to go on, then TA-DAH! it is still considered one's "internal self." The inner-being is always the inner-being, whether said individual is feral or a part of society. I mean, existentialism...hello?!

By the way, I'm also an existentialist! Yay!
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Old 04-16-06   #91
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Sic

sorry let me rephrase. An individual does not express there true internal self in society. There are many aspects of the individual that define the social group into which a person falls, however that group does not allow for true expression. you may want to run through the streets naked but you dont (example) largely because society has set limits to the behavior that can be expressed.
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Old 04-17-06   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theburningbush
Sic

sorry let me rephrase. An individual does not express there true internal self in society. There are many aspects of the individual that define the social group into which a person falls, however that group does not allow for true expression. you may want to run through the streets naked but you dont (example) largely because society has set limits to the behavior that can be expressed.

I want to ask a question, and not to sound condenscending, but just how much philosophy have you encountered?

The ideas behind "self" is such a diverse and expanded part of philosophy that it's perhaps the biggest philosophical theme in history. Ever since Modern Philosophy (accredited to Descartes as being the father), the "essence"/self of objects (including man) has essentially been the sole reason for Continental Philosophy.

Anyway, Existenialism is one of those big words thrown around by many, but rarely understood. Nietzsche, Camus, Sartre, even Heidegger to an extent, are key players in the philosophy. Roughly state, the argument goes: In the search for Big-T Truth we are left with small-t truth's to guide us; and as such, in understanding existence, man has to really ask themselves what they truly know, what knowledge they truly possess. Now ask any man on the street "Do you exist?" and they will most likely respond "Yes." Ask them then "Do I exist?" and again they will most likely respond "Yes." Then ask them to prove it...

When philosophers tried to prove it, they discovered that we can only guarantee "something elses" existence in as much as we can guarantee ours. You have seen President George Bush on television, but how do you know he really exists? If all we have to go one is the empirical data that he does indeed exist, and if we know empiricism has its flaws, then one cannot accurately prove he exists a full 100%. As such, when you asked that man if you existed, he also doesn't know that a full 100%...empiricism isn't full proof, no matter how much empirical data is gained. Therefore, how much do you know you truly exist?

The answer, blantly, is 99.9999999999999% If you can't justify logically, prove that it's sound and valid, that I, sixxx(sic)six exist, then how can you logically justify that you, Burning Bush exist?

So, to get into the nitty-gritty, if there's any hope that you do indeed exist a full 100%, then you must focus on that solely. And in order to do so, one must understand their "self." Now, problem: society. The moral society, the religious society, the law abiding society, the scientific society, all of them play a factor in the "self," but should not controll the "self." If you exist 99.99999999%, and society is 99.888888% (since you have less proof of its existence than your own existence), then perhaps it's safe to abide by an abstract concept such as if it doesn't exist, then it doesn't matter.

Now that's a huge part of Nietzschian philosophy. Such as, morality doesn't exist...which, philosophically speaking, is pretty much labeled a small-t truth. Anyway, if your self is all you know exist, then be your self. Sure, society may spank you for what you do, but how do you know the punishment even exists? It still exists a fraction less than you. So, if it is your "self" to run naked through the streets, despite the consequences or lack thereof, then JUST BE YOUR SELF!
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Old 04-17-06   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxx(sic)six
I want to ask a question, and not to sound condenscending, but just how much philosophy have you encountered?
Not very much I dropped existenialism in college (regret it now). What I find so interesting about philiosphy is that although I am not as fully educated as yourself I can still particpate in the conversation as long as the information remains general. I can not debate the finer points of existenialism because I do not know what they are but I can still argue my case.

you are not seeing the forest for the trees on this topic. the "self" the "individual" is very complex the "herd" is not. the mainfestation of a "reaction" within the enviorement is going to be determined by the "indivdual" and the depth of the constrainsts society places on that individual. this is the simply view of understanding behavior with the enviroment deamed to be "reality" and the orginal topic of my equation. If you want to change gears and increase the focues iam all for it. new thread?
[/quote]
JUST BE YOUR SELF![/quote]

LOL good one.
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Old 04-17-06   #94
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If you wish to start a new thread on what ever topic you want to discuss, by all means, go for it. But, just as a request, type slower and a little more legible.

But yeah, it sounds like you're kind of diving into sociology, which I know very little of. And yeah, I'm the philosophy nut here. One day I hope to get a PhD in it, but for now, continuing school isn't on my agenda just yet. So I'll settle with my two B.A.'s. Yay!
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Old 04-17-06   #95
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woohoo for not being in college yet.....Philosophy and engineering/crit reading double major for me....
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Old 04-18-06   #96
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Find out what type of philosophy you want to study first, Continental or Analytical...

Most colleges/universities teach Analytical, I think only 10% or so teach Continental, which is what I studied.
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Old 04-19-06   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxx(sic)six
If you wish to start a new thread on what ever topic you want to discuss, by all means, go for it. But, just as a request, type slower and a little more legible.!
Ill do my best but I am posting under duress.
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Old 04-19-06   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixxx(sic)six
Find out what type of philosophy you want to study first, Continental or Analytical...

Most colleges/universities teach Analytical, I think only 10% or so teach Continental, which is what I studied.
which would u recommend? And if thats true then it will probably be based on which college, not college based on type.
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Old 04-19-06   #99
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Well, most of what we've been discussing here at DF would fall under Continental Philosophy, which is generally what most people think of when they think of philosophy. It pretty much is philosophy as a whole: Pre-Socratic, the classics (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle), medieval philosophy, theology, modern philosophy (Descartes, Nietzsche, Hume, Locke, etc...)

Analytical is just a new field of philosophy and seems to be the focus of most universities. I've only studied a bit of it, symbolic logic, law, etc. I would imagine that wherever you go you'd study both, but one or the other would be the main focus. I personally recomend continental since it's far more interesting.
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Old 04-20-06   #100
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I think i agree with you. Im still researching colleges, but that will be one more thing to narrow the search.
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