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Reload this Page prove the Bible wrong...please!
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Old 06-30-03   #21
TheLight
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Its dyshade.

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For nothing is hidden, except to revealed; nor has anything been secret, but that it would come to light. Mark 4:21+24
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Old 06-30-03   #22
SilentShade
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Do you have some sort of problem with me???
I thought according to your beloved religion you were supposed to behave in a moral and loving manner???

Perhaps I was wrong....

Here is the Enuma Elish..... I am sure you will not see the resemblances.... yet they are there.... the Enuma Elish predates the Judaic Genesis by about 10,000 years and is the earliest Creation Epic written by humans.... as I stated it is Sumerian in origin.... the Babylonians took it word for word from them.... Abraham lived in Babylon for years.... Jews were allowed almost complete freedom in Babylon and he studied with various priests from the Babylonian hierarchy.... when he left Babylon to establish a Judaic homeland he left with a here to fore unbeknownst writ called Genesis which Abraham said came from yahweh.... who was at that point still just the Judaic God Of War...... and here it is ....

************************************************

The Enuma Elish

Tablet I

When on high the heaven had not been named,
Firm ground below had not been called by name,
Naught but primordial Apsu, their begetter,
And Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all,
Their waters commingling as a single body;
No reed hut had been matted, no marsh land had appeared,
When no gods whatever had been brought into being,
Uncalled by name, their destinies undetermined--
Then it was that the gods were formed within them.
Lahmu and Lahamu were brought forth, by name they were called. (10)
Before they had grown in age and stature,
Anshar and Kishar were formed, surpassing the others.
They prolonged the days, added on the years.
Anu was their heir, of his fathers the rival;
Yes, Anshar's first-born, Anu, was his equal.
Anu begot in his image Nudimmud.
This Nudimmud was of his fathers the master;
Of broad wisdom, understanding, mighty in strength,
Mightier by far than his grandfather, Anshar.
He had no rival among the gods, his brothers. (20)

The divine brothers banded together,
They disturbed Tiamat as they surged back and forth,
Yes, they troubled the mood of Tiamat
By their hilarity in the Abode of Heaven.
Apsu could not lessen their clamor
And Tiamat was speechless at their ways.
Their doings were loathsome unto . . . .
Unsavory were their ways; they were overbearing.
Then Apsu, the begetter of the great gods,
Cried out, addressing Mummu, his vizier: (30)

"O Mummu, my vizier, who rejoices my spirit,
Come here and let us go to Tiamat!"

They went and sat down before Tiamat,
Exchanging counsel about the gods, their first-born.
Apsu, opening his mouth,
Said to resplendent Tiamat:

"Their ways are truly loathsome to me.
By day I find no relief, nor repose by night.
I will destroy, I will wreck their ways,
That quiet may be restored. Let us have rest!" (40)

As soon as Tiamat heard this,
She was wroth and called out to her husband.
She cried out aggrieved, as she raged all alone,
Injecting woe into her mood:

"What? Should we destroy that which we have built?
Their ways indeed are most troublesome, but let us attend kindly!"

Then Mummu answered, giving counsel to Apsu;
Ill-wishing and ungracious was Mummu's advice:

"Do destroy, my father, the mutinous ways.
Then you will have relief by day and rest by night!" (50)

When Apsu heard this, his face grew radiant
Because of the evil he planned against the gods, his sons.
As for Mummu, he embraced him by the neck
As that one sat down on his knees to kiss him.

Now whatever they had plotted between them,
Was repeated unto the gods, their first-born.
When the gods heard this, they were astir,
Then lapsed into silence and remained speechless.
Surpassing in wisdom, accomplished, resourceful,
Ea, the all-wise, saw through their scheme. (60)
A master design against it he devised and set up,
Made artful his spell against it, surpassing and holy.
He recited it and made it subsist in the deep,
As he poured sleep upon him. Sound asleep he lay.
When he had made Apsu prone, drenched with sleep,
Mummu, the adviser, was powerless to stir.
He loosened his band, tore off his tiara,
Removed his halo and put it on himself.
Having fettered Apsu, he slew him.
Mummu he bound and left behind lock. (70)

Having thus established his dwelling upon Apsu,
He laid hold of Mummu, holding him by the nose-rope.
After Ea had vanquished and trodden down his foes,
Had secured his triumph over his enemies,
In his sacred chamber in profound peace had rested,
He named it "Apsu," for shrines he assigned it.
In that same place his cult hut he founded.
Ea and Damkina, his wife, dwelled there in splendor.

The Birth of Marduk

ln the chamber of fates, the abode of destinies,
A god was engendered, most able and wisest of gods. (80)
In the heart of Apsu was Marduk created,
In the heart of holy Apsu was Marduk created.
He who begot him was Ea, his father;
She who bore him was Damkina, his mother.
The breast of goddesses he did suck.
The nurse that nursed him filled him with awesomeness.
Alluring was his figure, sparkling the lift of his eyes.
Lordly was his gait, commanding from of old.
When Ea saw him, the father who begot him,
He exulted and glowed, his heart filled with gladness. (90)
He rendered him perfect and endowed him with a double godhead.
Greatly exalted was he above them, exceeding throughout.
Perfect were his members beyond comprehension,
Unsuited for understanding, difficult to perceive.
Four were his eyes, four were his ears;
When he moved his lips, fire blazed forth.
Large were all four hearing organs,
And the eyes, in like number, scanned all things.
He was the loftiest of the gods, surpassing was his stature;
His members were enormous, he was exceeding tall. (100)
"My little son, my little son!"
My son, the Sun! Sun of the heavens!"
Clothed with the halo of ten gods, he was strong to the utmost,
As their awesome flashes were heaped upon him.
Anu brought forth and begot the fourfold wind
Consigning to its power the leader of tlte host.
He fashioned . . . , stationed the whirlwind,
He produced streams to disturb Tiamat.
The gods, given no rest, suffer in the storm.
Their hearts having plotted evil,
To Tiamat, their mother, said:

"When they slew Apsu, your consort,
You did not aid him but remained still.
When he created the dread fourfold wind,
Your vitals were diluted and so we can have no rest.
Let Apsu, your consort, be in your mind
And Mummu, who has been vanquished! You are left alone!
. . . you pace about distraught,
. . . without cease. You do not love us!
. . . our eyes are pinched, (120)
. . . without cease. Let us have rest!
. . . to battle. Avenge them!
. . . and render them as the wind!"

When Tiamat heard these words, she was pleased:

" . . . you have given. Let us make monsters,
. . . and the gods in the midst . . . .
. . . let us do battle and against the gods . . . !"

They thronged and marched at the side of Tiamat.
Enraged, they plot without cease night and day,
They are set for combat, growling, raging, (130)
They form a council to prepare for the fight.
Mother Hubur, she who fashions all things,
Added matchless weapons, bore monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth, unsparing of fang.
With venom for blood she has filled their bodies.
Roaring dragons she has clothed with terror,
Has crowned them with haloes, making them like gods,
So that he who beholds them shall perish abjectly,
And that, with their bodies reared up, none might turn them back.
She set up the Viper, the Dragon, and the Sphinx, (140)
The Great-Lion, the Mad-Dog, and the Scorpion-Man,
Mighty lion-demons, the Dragon-Fly, the Centaur--
Bearing weapons that spare not, fearless in battle.
Firm were her decrees, past withstanding were they.
Withal eleven of this kind she brought forth.
From among the gods, her first-born, who formed her Assembly,
She elevated Kingu, made him chief among them.
The leading of the ranks, command of the Assembly,
The raising of weapons for the encounter, advancing to combat,
In battle the command-in-chief-- (150)
These she entrusted to his hand as she seated him in the Council:

"I have cast for you the spell, exalting you in the Assembly of the gods.
To counsel all the gods I have given you full power.
Truly, you are supreme, you are my only consort!
Your utterance shall prevail over all the Anunnaki!"

She gave him the Tablet of Destinies, fastened on his breast:

"As for you, your command shall be unchangeable, your word shall endure!"

As soon as Kingu was elevated, possessed of the rank of Anu,
they decreed the fate for the gods, his sons:

"Your word shall make the first subside, (160)
Shall humble the `Power-Weapon,' so potent in its sweep!"


Tablet II

When Tiamat had thus lent import to her handiwork,
She prepared for battle against the gods, her offspring.
To avenge Apsu, Tiamat wrought evil.
That she was girding for battle was divulged to Ea.
As soon as Ea heard of this matter,
He lapsed into dark silence and sat right still.
Then, on further thought, his anger subsided,
He betook himself to Anshar, his fore father.
When he came before his grandfather, Anshar,
He repeated all that Tiamat had plotted to him:

"My father, Tiamat, she who bore us, detests us.
She has set up the Assembly and is furious with rage.
All the gods have rallied to her;
Even those whom you brought forth march at her side.
They throng and march at the side of Tiamat,
Enraged, they plot without cease night and day.
They are set for combat, growling, raging,
They have formed a council to prepare for the fight.
Mother Hubur, she who fashions all things,
Has added matchless weapons, has born mons‚er-serpents, (20)
Sharp of tooth, unsparing of fang.
With venom for blood she has filled their bodies.
Roaring dragons she has clothed with terror,
Has crowned them with haloes, making them like gods,
So that he who beholds them shall perish abjectly,
And that, with their bodies reared up, none might turn them back.
She has set up the Viper, the Dragon, and the Sphinx,
The Great-Lion, the Mad-Dog, and the Scorpion-Man,
Mighty lion-demons, the Dragon-Fly, the Centaur--
Bearing weapons that spare not, fearless in battle. (30)
Her decrees are firm, they are past withstanding.
Withal eleven of this kind she has brought forth.
From among the gods, her first-born, who formed her Assembly,
She has elevated Kingu, has made him chief among them.
The leading of the ranks, command of the Assembly,
The raising of weapons for the encounter, advancing to combat,
In battle the command-in-chief--
She entrusted these to his hands as she seated him in the Council:

`I have cast the spell for thee, exalting thee in the Assembly of the gods.
To counsel all the gods I have given thee full power. (40)
Truly, you are supreme, you are my only consort!
Your utterance shall prevail over all the Anunnaki!'

She has given him the Tablet of Destinies, fastened on his breast:

`As for you, your command shall be unchangeable, your word shall endure!'

As soon as Kingu was elevated, possessed of the rank of Anu,
they decreed the fate for the gods, her sons:

`Your word shall make the fire subside,
Shall humble the "Power-Weapon," so potent in its sweep!'

When Anshar heard that Tiamat was sorely troubled,
He struck his loins and bit his lips. (50)
His heart was gloomy, his mood restless.
He covered his mouth to stifle his outcry:

" . . . battle.
Bear up the weapon you have made!
Lo, you killed Mummu and Apsu.
Now, kill Kingu, who marches before her.
. . . wisdom."

Nudimmud, the counselor of the gods, answered.

(The reply of Ea-Nudimmud is lost in the break of the tablet. Apparently, Ea had no remedy, for Anshar next turns to Anu

He addressed a word to Anu, his son:

" . . . this, the most powerful of heroes,
Whose strength is outstanding, his onslaught past resisting.
You go and stand up to Tiamat,
That her mood be calmed, that her heart expand.
If she will not listen to your word,
Then tell her our word, that she might be calmed."

When he heard the command of his father, Anshar,
He made straight for her way, following the road to her. (80)
But when Anu was near enough to see the plan of Tiamat,
He was not able to face her and he turned back.
He came abjectly to his father, Anshar.
As though he were Tiamat thus he addressed him:

"My hand suffices not for me to subdue you."

Anshar was speechless as he stared at the ground,
Hair on edge, shaking his head at Ea.
All the Anunnaki gathered at that place;
Their lips closed tight, they sat in silence.

"No god," they thought "can go to battle and, (90)
Facing Tiamat, escape with his life."

Lord Anshar, father of the gods, rose up in grandeur,
And having pondered in his heart, he said to the Anunnaki:

"He whose strength is potent shall be our avenger,
He who is keen in battle, Marduk, the hero!"

Ea called Marduk to his place of seclusion.
Giving counsel, he told him what was in his heart:

"O Marduk, consider my advice. Listen to your father,
For you are my son who comforts his heart.
When facing Anshar, approach as though in combat; (100)
Stand up as you speak; seeing you, he will grow restful."

The lord rejoiced at the word of his father;
He approached and stood up facing Anshar.
When Anshar saw him, his heart filled with joy.
He kissed his lips, his own gloom dispelled.

"Anshar, be not muted; open wide thy lips.
I will go and attain thy heart's desire.
Anshar, be not muted; open wide your lips.
I will go and attain your heart's desire!
What male is it who has pressed his fight against you?
It is but Tiamat, a woman, that flies at thee with weapons!
O my father-creator, be glad and rejoice;
You shall soon tread upon the neck of Tiamat!
O my father-creator, be glad and rejoice;
You shall soon tread upon the neck of Tiamat!"

"My son, you who knows all wisdom,
Calm Tiamat with your holy spell.
On the storm-chariot proceed with all speed.
They shall not drive you from her presence! Turn them back!"

The lord rejoiced at the word of his father.
His heart exulting, he said to his father:

"Creator of the gods, destiny of the great gods,
If I indeed, as your avenger,
Am to vanquish Tiamat and save your lives,
Set up the Assembly, proclaim my destiny to be supreme!
When jointly in Ubshukinna you have sat down rejoicing,
Let my word, instead of you, determine the fates.
What I may bring into being shall be unalterable;
The command of my lips shall be neither recalled nor changed."


Tablet III

Anshar opened his mouth and
Addressed a word to Gaga, his vizier:
"O Gaga, my vizier, who gladdens my spirit,
I will dispatch you to Lahmu and Lahamu.
You know discernment, you are adept at fine talk;
The gods, your fathers, produce you before me!
Let all the gods proceed here,
Let them hold converse, sit down to a banquet,
Let them eat festive bread, poured wine;
For Marduk, their avenger, let them fix the decrees.
Be on your way, Gaga, take the stand before them,
And that which I shall tell you repeat to them:

`Anshar, your son, has sent me here,
Charging me to give voice to the dictates of his heart,
Saying : "Tiamat, she who bore us, detests us.
She has set up the Assembly and is furious with rage.
All the gods have rallied to her;
Even those whom you brought forth march at her side.
They throng and march at the side of Tiamat.
Enraged, they plot without cease night and day. (20)
They are set for combat, growling, raging,
They have formed a council to prepare for the fight.
Mother Hubur, she who fashions all things,
Has added matchless weapons, has born monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth, unsparing of fang.
With venom for blood she has filled their bodies.
Roaring dragons she has clothed with terror,
Has crowned them with haloes, making them like gods,
So that he who beholds them shall perish abjectly,
And that, with their bodies reared up, none might turn them back. (30)
She has set up the Viper, the Dragon, and the Sphinx,
The Great-Lion, the Mad-Dog, and the Scorpion-Man,
Mighty lion-demons, the Dragon-Fly, the Centaur--
Bearing weapons that spare not, fearless in battle.
Her decrees are firm, they are past withstanding.
Withal eleven of this kind she has brought forth.
From among the gods, her first-born, who formed her Assembly,
She has elevated Kingu, has made him chief among them.
The leading of the ranks, command of the Assembly,
The raising of weapons for the encounter, advancing to combat, (40)
In battle the command-in-chief--
These to his hands she entrusted as she seated him in the Council:
`I have cast the spell for you, exalting you in the Assembly of the gods.
To counsel all the gods I have given you full power.
truly, you are supreme, you are my only consort!
Your utterance shall prevail over all the Anunnaki!'
She has given him the Tablet of Destinies, fastened on his breast:
`As for you, your command shall be unchangeable, your word shall endure!'
As soon as Kingu was elevated, possessed of the rank of Anu,
For the gods, her sons, they decreed the fate: (50)
`Your word shall make the fire subside,
Shall humble the "Power-Weapon," so potent in its sweep!'
I sent forth Anu; he could not face her.
Nudimmud was afraid and turned back.
Forth came Marduk, the wisest of gods, your son,
His heart having prompted him to set out to face Tiamat.
He opened his mouth, saying unto me:
`If I indeed, as your avenger,
Am to vanquish Tiamat and save your lives,
Set up the Assembly, proclaim supreme my destiny! (60)
When jointly in Ubshukinna you have sat down rejoicing,
Let my word, instead of you, determine the fates.
Unalterable shall be what I may bring into being;
Neither recalled nor changed shall be the command of my lips!'
Now hasten here and promptly fix for him your decrees,
That he may go forth to face your mighty foe!" ' "

Gaga departed, proceeding on his way.
Before Lahmu and Lahamu, the gods, his fathers,
He made obeisance, kissing the ground at their feet.
He bowed low as he took his place to address them: (70)

"It was Anshar, your son, who has sent me hither,
Charging me to give voice to the dictates of his heart,
Saying: `Tiamat, she who bore us, detests us.
She has set up the Assembly and is furious with rage.
All the gods have rallied to her,
Even those whom you brought forth march at her side.
They throng and march at the side of Tiamat.
Enraged, they plot without cease night and day.
They are set for combat, growling, raging,
They have formed a council to prepare for the fight. (80)
Mother Hubur, she who fashions all things,
Has added matchless weapons, has born monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth, unsparing of fang.
With venom for blood she has filled their bodies,
Roaring dragons she has clothed with terror,
Has crowned them with haloes, making them like gods,
So that he who beholds them shall perish abjectly,
And that, with their bodies reared up, none might turn them back.
She has set up vipers, dragons, and sphlinxes,
Great-lions, mad-dogs, and scorpion-men, (90)
Mighty lion-demons, dragon-flies, and centaurs--
Bearing weapons that spare not, fearless in battle.
Firm are decrees, past withstanding are they.
Withal eleven of this kind she has brought forth.
From among the gods, her first-born, who formed her Assembly,
She has elevated Kingu, has made him chief among them.
The leading of the ranks, command of the Assembly,
The raising of weapons for the encounter, advancing to combat,
In battle the command-in-chief--
These to his hands she has entrusted as she seated him in the Council: (100)
`I have cast the spell for you, exalting you in the Assembly of the gods.
To counsel all the gods I have given you full power.
Truly, you are supreme, you are my only consort!
Your utterance shall prevail over all the Anunnaki!'
She has given him the Tablet of Destinies, fastened on his breast:
`As for you, your command shall be unchangeable, your word shall endure!'
As soon as Kingu was elevated, possessed of the rank of Anu,
For the gods, her sons, they decreed the fate:
`Your word shall make the fire subside,
Shall humble the "Power-Weapon," so potent in its sweep!'
I sent forth Anu; he could not face her.
Nudimmud was afraid and turned back.
Forth came Marduk, the wisest of gods, your son,
His heart having prompted him to set out to face Tiamat.
He opened his mouth, saying unto me:
`If I indeed, as your avenger,
Am to vanquish Tiamat and save your lives,
Set up the Assembly, proclaim supreme my destiny!
When in Ubshukinna jointly you sit down rejoicing,
Let my word, instead of you, determine the fates. (120)
Unalterable shall be what I may bring into being;
Neither recalled nor changed shall be the command of my lips!'
Now hasten here and promptly fix for him your decrees,
That he may go forth to face your mighty foe!"

When Lahmu and Lahamu heard this, they cried out aloud,
All the Igigi wailed in distress:

"How strange that they should have made this decision!
We cannot fathom the doings of Tiamat!"

They made ready to leave on their journey,
All the great gods who decree the fates. (130)
They entered before Anshar, filling Ubshukinna.
They kissed one another in the Assembly.
They held converse as they sat down to the banquet.
They ate festive bread, poured the wine,
They wetted their drinking-tubes with sweet intoxicant.
As they drank the strong drink, their bodies swelled.
They became very languid as their spirits rose.
For Marduk, their avenger, they fixed the decrees.


Tablet IV

They erected for him a princely throne.
Facing his fathers, he sat down, presiding.

"You are the most honored of the great gods,
Your decree is unrivaled, you command is Anu.
You, Marduk, are the most honored of the great gods,
Your decree is unrivaled, your word is Anu.
From this day your pronouncement shall be unchangeable.
To raise or bring low--these shall be in your hand.
Your utterance shall be true, your command shall be unimpeachable.
No one among the gods shall transgress your bounds!
Adornment being wanted for the seats of the gods,
Let the place of their shrines ever be in your place.
O Marduk, you are indeed our avenger.
We have granted you kingship over the universe entire.
When you sit in Assembly your word shall be supreme.
Your weapons shall not fail; they shall smash your foes!
O lord, spare the life of him who trusts you,
But pour out the life of the god who seized evil."

Having placed in their midst the Images,
They addressed themselves to Marduk, their first-born: (20)

"Lord, truly your decree is first among gods.
Say but to wreck or create; it shall be.
Open your mouth: the Images will vanish!
Speak again, and the Images shall be whole!"

At the word of his mouth the Images vanished.
He spoke again, and the Images were restored.
When the gods, his fathers, saw the fruit of his word,
Joyfully they did homage: "Marduk is king!"
They conferred on him scepter, throne, and vestment;
They gave him matchless weapons that ward off the foes: (30)
"Go and cut off the life of Tiamat.
May the winds bear her blood to places undisclosed."
Bel's destiny thus fixed, the gods, his fathers,
Caused him to go the way of success and attainment.
He constructed a bow, marked it as his weapon,
Attached thereto the arrow, fixed its bow-cord.
He raised the mace, made his right hand grasp it;
Bow and quiver he hung at his side.
In front of him he set the lightning,
With a blazing flame he filled his body. (40)
He then made a net to enfold Tiamat therein.
The four winds he stationed that nothing of her might escape,
The South Wind, the North Wind, the East Wind, the West Wind.
Close to his side he held the net, the gift of his father, Anu.
He brought forth Imhullu "the Evil Wind," the Whirl-wind, the Hurricane,
The Fourfold Wind, the Sevenfold Wind, the Cyclone, the Matchless Wind;
Then he sent forth the winds he had brought forth, the seven of them.
To stir up the inside of Tiamat they rose up behind him.
Then the lord raised up the flood-storm, his mighty weapon.
He mounted the storm-chariot irresistible and terrifying. (50)
He harnessed and yoked to it a team-of-four,
The Killer, the Relentless, the Trampler, the Swift.
Their lips were parted, their teeth bore poison.
They were tireless and skilled in destruction.
On his right he posted the Smiter, fearsome in battle,
On the left the Combat, which repels all the zealous.
For a cloak he was wrapped in an armor of terror;
With his fearsome halo his head was turbaned.
The lord went forth and followed his course,
Towards the raging Tiamat he set his face. (60)
In his lips he held a spell;
A plant to put out poison was grasped in his hand.
Then they milled about him, the gods milled about him,
The gods, his fathers, milled about him, the gods milled about him.
The lord approached to scan the inside of Tiamat,
And of Kingu, her consort, the scheme to perceive.
As he looks on, his course becomes upset,
His will is distracted and his doings are confused.
And when the gods, his helpers, who marched at his side,
Saw the valiant hero, their vision became blurred. (70)
Tiamat emitted a cry, without turning her neck,
Framing savage defiance in her lips:

"You are too important for the lord of the gods to rise up against you!
Is it in their place that they have gathered, or in your place?"

Thereupon the lord, having raised the flood-storm, his mighty weapon,
To enraged Tiamat he sent word as follows:

"Why are you risen, haughtily exalted,
You have charged your own heart to stir up conflict, . . . sons reject their own fathers,
While you, who have born them, have foresworn love! (80)
You have appointed Kingu as your consort,
Conferring upon him the rank of Anu, not rightfully his.
Against Anshar, king of the gods, you seek evil;
Against the gods, my fathers, you have confirmed your wickedness.
Though your forces are drawn up, your weapons girded on,
Stand up, that I and you might meet in single combat!"

When Tiamat heard this,
She was like one possessed; she took leave of her senses.
In fury Tiamat cried out aloud.
To the roots her legs shook both together. (90)
She recites a charm, keeps casting her spell,
While the gods of battle sharpen their weapons.
Then Tiamat and Marduk joined issue , wisest of gods.
They strove in single combat, locked in battle.
The lord spread out his net to enfold her,
The Evil Wind, which followed behind, he let loose in her face.
When Tiamat opened her mouth to consume him,
He drove in the Evil Wind that she close not her lips.
As the fierce winds charged her belly,
Her body was distended and her mouth was wide open. (100)
He released the arrow, it tore her belly,
It cut through her insides, splitting the heart.
Having thus subdued her, he extinguished her life.
He cast down her carcass to stand upon it.
After he had slain Tiamat, the leader,
Her band was shattered, her troupe broken up;
And the gods, her helpers who marched at her side,
Trembling with terror, turned their backs about,
In order to save and preserve their lives.
Tightly encircled, they could not escape.
He made them captives and he smashed their weapons.
Thrown into the net, they found themselves ensnared;
Placed in cells, they were filled with wailing;
Bearing his wrath, they were held imprisoned.
And the eleven creatures which she had charged with awe,
The whole band of demons that marched on her right,
He cast into fetters, their hands he bound.
For all their resistance, he trampled them underfoot.
And Kingu, who had been made chief among them,
He bound and accounted him to Uggae. (120)
He took from him the Tablet of Destinies, not rightfully his,
Sealed them with a seal and fastened them on his breast.
When he had vanquished and subdued his adversaries,
Had . . . the vainglorious foe,
Had wholly established Anshar's triumph over the foe,
Had achieved Nudimmud's desire, valiant Marduk
Strengthened his hold on the vanquished gods,
And turned back to Tiamat whom he had bound.
The lord trod on the legs of Tiamat,
With his unsparing mace he crushed her skull. (130)
When the arteries of her blood he had severed,
The North Wind bore it to places undisclosed.

On seeing this, his fathers were joyful and jubilant,
They brought gifts of homage, they to him.
Then the lord paused to view her dead body,
That he might divide the monster and do artful works.
He split her like a shellfish into two parts:
Half of her he set up and ceiled it as sky,
Pulled down the bar and posted guards.
He bade them to allow not her waters to escape. (140)
He crossed the heavens and surveyed the regions.
He squared Apsu's quarter, the abode of Nudimmud,
As the lord measured the dimensions of Apsu.
The Great Abode, its likeness, he fixed as Esharra,
The Great Abode, Esharra, which he made as the firmament.
Anu, Enlil, and Ea he made occupy their places.


Tablet V

He constructed stations for the great gods,
Fixing their astral likenesses as the Images.
He determined the year by designating the zones:
He set up three constellations for each of the twelve months.
After defining the days of the year by means of
heavenly figures,
He founded the station of Nebiru to determine their heavenly bands,
That none might transgress or fall short.
Alongside it he set up the stations of Enlil and Ea.
Having opened up the gates on both sides,
He strengthened the locks to the left and the right. (10)
In her belly he established the zenith.
The Moon he caused to shine, entrusting the night to him.
He appointed him a creature of the night to signify the days:

"Monthly, without cease, form designs with a crown.
At the month's very start, rising over the land,
You shall have luminous horns to signify six days,
On the seventh day reaching a half-crown.
At full moon stand in opposition in mid-month.
When the sun overtakes you at the base of heaven,
Diminish your crown and retrogress in light. (20)
At the time of disappearance approach the course of the sun,
And on the thirtieth you shall again stand in opposition to the sun.
I have appointed a sign, follow its path,
. . . approach and give judgement."

(Lines 25~44 are too broken for translation. It is clear from the traces, however, that after completing his creation of the moon Marduk turned his attention to establishing the sun.)

After he had appointed the days to Shamash, (45)
And had established the precincts of night and day,
Taking the spittle of Tiamat
Marduk created . . .
He formed the clouds and filled them with water.
The raising of winds, the bringing of rain and cold, (50)
Making the mist smoke, piling up her poison:
These he appointed to himself, took into his own charge.
Putting her head into position he formed thereon the mountains,
Opening the deep which was in flood,
He caused to flow from her eyes the Euphrates and Tigris,
Stopping her nostrils he left . . . ,
He formed at her udder the lofty mountains,
Therein he drilled springs for the wells to carry off the water.
Twisting her tail he bound it to Durmah,
. . . Apsu at his foot, (60)
. . . her crotch, she was fastened to the heavens,
Thus he covered the heavens and established the earth.
. . . in the midst of Tiamat he made flow,
. . . his net he completely let out,
So he created heaven and earth . . . ,
. . . their bounds . . . established.
When he had designed his rules and fashioned his ordinances,
He founded the shrines and handed them over to Ea.
The Tablet of Destinies which he had taken from Kingu he carried,
He brought it as the first gift of greeting, he gave it to Anu. (70)
The gods who had done battIe and been scattered,
He led bound into the presence of his fathers.
Now the eleven creatures which Tiamat had made . . . ,
Whose weapons he had shattered, which he had tied to his foot:
Of these he made statues and set them up at the
Gate of Apsu saying:

"Let it be a token that this may never be forgotten!"

When the gods saw this they were exceedingly glad,
Lahmu, Lahamu, and all of his fathers
Crossed over to him, and Anshar, the king, made manifest his greeting,
Anu, Enlil, and Ea presented to him gifts. (80)
With a gift Damkina, his mother, made him joyous,
She sent offerings, his face brightened.
To Usmi who brought her gift to a secret place
He entrusted the chancellorship of Apsu and the stewardship of the shrines.
Being assembled, all the Igigi bowed down,
While everyone of the Anunnaki kissed his feet,
. . . their assembly to do obeisance,
They stood before him, bowed and said: "He is the king!"
After the gods, his fathers, were satiated with his charms. (89)

(Lines 90-106 are too mutilated for translation. In this passage the seating of Marduk on the throne with his weapons was described.)

Ea and Damkina . . . , (107)
They opened their mouths to speak to the great gods, the Igigi:

"Formerly Marduk was merely our beloved son,
Now he is your king, proclaim his title!"

A second speech they made, they all spoke:

"His name shall be Lugaldimmerankia, trust in him!"

When they had given the sovereignty to Marduk,
They declared for him a formula of good fortune and success:

"Henceforth you will be the patron of our sanctuaries,
Whatever you command we will do."

Marduk opened his mouth to speak,
To say a word to the gods, his fathers:

"Above the Apsu where you have resided,
The counterpart of Esharra which I have built over you, (120)
Below I have hardened the ground for a building site,
I will build a house, it will be my luxurious abode.
I will found therein its temple,
I will appoint its inner rooms, I will establish my sovereignty.
When you come up from the Apsu for assembly,
You will spend the night in it, it is there to receive all of you.
When you descend from heaven for assembly,
You will spend the night in it, it is there to receive all of you.
I will call its name `Babylon' which means `the houses of the great gods,'
I shall build it with the skill of craftsmen." (130)

When the gods, his fathers, heard this speech of his,
They put the following question to Marduk, their firstborn:

"Over all that your hands have created,
Who will have your authority?
Over the ground which your hands have created,
Who will have your power?
Babylon, which you have given a fine name,
Therein establish our abode forever!
. . . , let them bring our daily ration,
. . . our . . . , (140)
Let no one usurp our tasks which we previously performed,
Therein . . . its labor . . .."

Marduk rejoiced when he heard this and
He answered those gods who had questioned him,
He that slew Tiamat showed them light,
He opened his mouth, his speech was noble:

" . . . them . . .,
. . . will be entrusted to you."

The gods bowed down before him, they spoke to him,
They said to Lugaldimmerankia: (150)

"Formerly the lord was merely our beloved son,
Now he is our king, proclaim his title!
He whose pure incantation gave us life,
He is the lord of splendor, mace, and sceptre.
Ea who knows the skill of all crafts,
Let him prepare the plans, we will be the workers."


Tablet VI

When Marduk hears the words of the gods,
His heart prompts him to fashion artful works.
Opening his mouth, he addresses Ea
To impart the plan he had conceived in his heart:

"Blood I will mass and cause bones to be.
I will establish a savage, `man' shall be his name.
truly, savage-man I will create.
He shall be charged with the service of the gods
That they might be at ease!
The ways of the gods I will artfully alter.
Though alike revered, into two groups they shall be divided."

Ea answered him, speaking a word to him,
Giving him another plan for the relief of the gods:

"Let but one of their brothers be handed over;
He alone shall perish that mankind may be fashioned.
Let the great gods be here in Assembly,
Let the guilty be handed over that they may endure."

Marduk summoned the great gods to Assembly;
Presiding graciously, he issues instructions.
To his utterance the gods pay heed.
The king addresses a word to the Anunnaki: (20)

"If your former statement was true,
Now declare the truth on oath by me!
Who was it that contrived the uprising,
And made Tiamat rebel, and joined battle?
Let him be handed over who contrived the uprising.
His guilt I will make him bear. You shall dwell in peace!"

The Igigi, the great gods, replied to him,
To Lugaldimmerankia, counselor of the gods, their lord:

"It was Kingu who contrived the uprising,
And made Tiamat rebel, and joined battle." (30)

They bound him, holding him before Ea.
They imposed on him his guilt and severed his blood vessels.
Out of his blood they fashioned mankind.
He imposed the service and let free the gods.

After Ea, the wise, had created mankind,
Had imposed upon it the service of the gods--
That work was beyond comprehension;
As artfully planned by Marduk, did Nudimmud create it--

Marduk, the king of the gods divided
All the Anunnaki above and below. (40)
He assigned them to Anu to guard his instructions.
Three hundred in the heavens he stationed as a guard.
In like manner the ways of the earth he defined.
In heaven and on earth six hundred thus he settled.
After he had ordered all the instructions,
To the Anunnaki of heaven and earth had alloted their portions,
The Anunnaki opened their mouths
And said to Marduk, their lord:

"Now, O lord, you who have caused our deliverance,
What shall be our homage to you? (50)
Let us build a shrine whose name shall be called
`Lo, a chamber for our nightly rest'; let us repose in it!
Let us build a throne, a recess for his abode!
On the day that we arrive we shall repose in it."

When Marduk heard this,
Brightly glowed his features, like the day:

"Construct Babylon, whose building you have requested,
Let its brickwork be fashioned. You shall name it `The Sanctuary.'"

The Anunnaki applied the implement;
For one whole year they molded bricks. (60)
When the second year arrived,
They raised high the head of Esagila equaling Apsu.
Having built a stage-tower as high as Apsu,
They set up in it an abode for Marduk, Enlil, and Ea
In their presence he was seated in grandeur.
To the base of Esharra its horns look down.

After they had achieved the building of Esagila,
All the Anunnaki erected their shrines.
The three hundred Igigi . . . . . . all of them gathered,
The lord being on the lofty dais which they had built as his abode, (70)
The gods, his fathers, at his banquet he seated:

"This is Babylon, the place that is your home!
Make merry in its precincts, occupy its broad places."

The great gods took their seats,
They set up festive drink, sat down to a banquet.
After they had made merry within it,
In Esagila, the splendid, had performed their rites,
The norms had been fixed and all their portents,
All the gods apportioned the stations of heaven and earth.
The fifty great gods took their seats. (80)
The seven gods of destiny set up the three hundred in heaven.
Enlil raised the bow, his weapon, and laid it before them.
The gods, his fathers, saw the net he had made.
When they beheld the bow, how skillful its shape,
His fathers praised the work he had wrought.
Raising it, Anu spoke up in the Assembly of the gods,
As he kissed the bow: "This is my daughter!"
He named the names of the bow as follows:

"Longwood is the first, the second is Accurate;
Its third name is Bow-Star, in heaven I have made it shine." (90)

He fixed its position with the gods its brothers.
After Anu had decreed the fate of the bow,
And had placed the lofty royal throne before the gods,
Anu placed it in the Assembly of the gods.
When the great gods had assembled,
They extolled the destiny of Marduk, they bowed down,
They pronounced among themselves a curse,
Swearing by water and oil to place life in jeopardy.
When they had granted him the exercise of kingship of the gods,
When they had given him dominion over the gods of heaven and underworld, (100)
Anshar pronounced supreme his name, Asarluhi, saying:

"Let us do obeisance at the mention of his name,
To his utterance let the gods give heed,
Let his command be supreme above and below!
Most exalted be the Son, our avenger;
Let his sovereignty be surpassing, having no rival.
May he shepherd the black-headed ones, his creatures.
To the end of days, without forgetting, let them acclaim his ways.
May he establish for his fathers the great food-offerings; (110)
Their support they shall furnish, shall tend their sanctuaries.
May he cause incense to be smelled, . . . their spells,
Make a likeness on earth of what he has wrought in heaven.
May he order the black-headed to revere him,
May the subjects ever bear in mind to speak of their god,
And may they at his word pay heed to the goddess.
May food-offerings be borne for their gods and goddesses.
Without fail let them support their gods!
Their lands let them improve, build their shrines,
Let the black-headed wait on their gods. (120)
As for us, by however many names we pronounce, he is our god!
Let us then proclaim his fifty names:

`He whose ways are glorious, whose deeds are likewise,
(1) MARDUK, as Anu, his father, called him from his birth;
Who provides grazing and drinking places, enriches their stalls,
Who with the flood-storm, his weapon, vanquished the detractors,
And who the gods, his fathers, rescued from distress.
Truly, the Son of the Sun, most radiant of gods is he.
In his brilliant light may they walk forever!
On the people he brought forth, endowed with life, (130)
The service of the gods he imposed that these may have ease.
Creation, destruction, deliverance, grace--
Shall be by his command. They shall look up to him!
(2) MARUKKA truly is the god, creator of all,
Who gladdens the heart of the Anunnaki, appeases the Igigi.
( MARUTUKKU truly is the refuge of his land, city, and people.
Unto him shall the people give praise forever.
(4) BARASHAKUSHU stood up and took hold of its reins;
Wide is his heart, warm his sympathy.
(5) LUGALDIMMERANKIA is his name which we proclaimed in our Assembly. (140)
His commands we have exalted above the gods, his fathers.
Truly, he is lord of all the gods of heaven and underworld,
The king at whose discipline the gods above and below are in mourning."
(6) NARI-LUGALDIMMERANKIA is the name of him
Whom we have called the monitor of the gods;
Who in heaven and on earth founds for us retreats in trouble,
And who allots stations to the Igigi and Anunnaki.
At his name the gods shall tremble and quake in retreat.
(7) ASARULUDU is that name of his
Which Anu, his father, proclaimed for him.
He is truly the light of the gods, the mighty leader,
Who, as the protecting deities of god and land, (150)
In fierce single combat saved our retreats in distress.
Asaruludu, secondly, they have named (8) NAMTILLAKU,
The god who maintains life,
Who restored the lost gods, as though his own creation;
The lord who revives the dead gods by his pure incantation,
Who destroys the wayward foes. Let us praise his prowess!
Asaruludu, whose name was thirdly called (9) NAMRU,
The shining god who illumines our ways.
Three each of his names have Anshar, Lahmu, and Lahamu proclaimed;
Unto the gods, their sons, they did utter them:

"We have proclaimed three each of his names. (160)
Like us, do you utter his names!"

Joyfully the gods heeded their command,
As in Ubshukinna they exchanged counsels:

"Of the heroic son, our avenger,
Of our supporter we will exalt the name!"

They sat down in their Assembly to fashion destinies,
All of them uttering his names in the sanctuary.


Tablet VII

(10) ASARU, bestower of cultivation, who established water levels;
Creator of grain and herbs, who causes vegetation to sprout.
(11) ASARUALIM, who is honored in the place of counsel, who excels in counsel;
To whom the gods hope, not being possessed of fear.
(12) ASARUALIMNUNNA, the gracious, light of the father, his begetter,
Who directs the decrees of Anu, Enlil, Ea and Ninigiku.
He is their provider who assigns their portions,
Whose horned cap is plenty, multiplying . . . .
(1 TUTU is he, who effects their restoration.
Let him purify their shrines that they may have ease.
Let him devise the spell that the gods may be at rest.
Should they rise in anger, let them turn back.
Truly, he is supreme in the Assembly of the gods;
No one among the gods is his equal.
Tutu is (14) ZIUKKINNA, life of the host of the gods,
Who established for the gods the holy heavens;
Who keeps a hold on their ways, determines their courses;
He shall not be forgotten by the beclouded. Let them
Remember his deeds!
Tutu they thirdly called (15) ZIKU, who establishes holiness,
The god of the benign breath, the lord who hearkens and acceeds; (20)
Who produces riches and treasures, establishes abundance;
Who has turned all our wants to plenty;
Whose benign breath we smelled in sore distress.
Let them speak, let them exalt, let them sing his praises!
Tutu, fourthly, let the people magnify as (16) AGAKU,
The lord of the holy charm, who revives the dead;
Who had mercy on the vanquished gods,
Who removed the yoke imposed on the gods, his enemies,
And who, to redeem them, created mankind;
The merciful, in whose power it lies to grant life. (30)
May his words endure, not to be forgotten,
In the mouth of the black-headed, whom his hands have created.
Tutu, fifthly, is (17) TUKU, whose holy spell their mouths shall murmur;
Who with his holy charm has uprooted all the evil ones.
(18) SHAZU, who knows the heart of the gods,
Who examines the inside;
From whom the evildoer cannot escape;
Who sets up the Assembly of the gods, gladdens their hearts;
Who subdues the insubmissive; their wide-spread protection;
Who directs justice, roots out crooked talk,
Who wrong and right in his place keeps apart. (40)
Shazu may they, secondly, exalt as (19) as Zisi,
Who silences the insurgent;
Who banishes consternation from the body of the gods, his fathers.
Shazu is, thirdly, (20) SUHRIM, who with the weapon roots out all enemies,
Who frustrates their plans, scatters them to the winds;
Who blots out all the wicked ones who tremble before him.
Let the gods exult in Assembly!
Shazu is, fourthly, (21) SUHGURIM, who insures a hearing for the gods, his fathers,
Creator of the gods, his fathers,
Who roots out the enemies, destroys their progeny;
Who frustrates their doings, leaving nothing of them.
May his name be evoked and spoken in the land! (50)
Shazu, fifthly, they shall praise as (22) ZAHRIM, the lold of the living,
Who destroys all adversaries, all the disobedient; pursues the evil;
Who all the fugitive gods brought home to their shrines.
May this his name endure!
To Shazu, moreover, they shall, sixthly, render all honor as (2 ZAHGURIM,
Who all the foes destroyed as though in battle.
(24) ENBILULU, the lord who makes them flourish, is he;
The mighty one who named them, who instituted roast-offerings ;
Who ever regulates for the land the grazing and watering places;
Who opened the wells, apportioning waters of abundance. (60)
Enbilulu, secondly, they shall glorify as (25) EPADUN,
The lord who sprinkles the field,
Irrigator of heaven and earth, who establishes seed-rows,
Who forms fine plow land in the steppe,
Dam and ditch regulates, who delimits the furrow;
Enbilulu, thirdly, they shall praise as (36) ENBILULUGUGAL,
The irrigator of the plantations of the gods;
Lord of abundance, opulence, and of ample crops,
Who provides wealth, enriches all dwellings,
Who furnishes millet, causes barley to appear.
Enbilulu is (27) HEGAL, who heaps up abundance for the people's consumption;
Who causes rich rains over the wide earth, provides vegetation.
(28) SIRSIR, who heaped up a mountain over her, Tiamat, (70)
Who the corpse of Tiamat carried off with his weapon;
Who directs the land--their faithful shepherd;
Whose hair is a grain field, his horned cap furrows;
Who the wide-spreading Sea vaults in his wrath,
Crossing her like a bridge at the place of single combat.
Sirsir, secondly, they named (29) MALAH--and so forth--
Tiamat is his vessel and he the rider.
(30) GIL, who stores up grain heaps--massive mounds--
Who brings forth barley and millet, furnishes the seed of the land.
(31) GILMA, who makes lasting the lofty abode of the gods, Creator of security, (80)
The hoop that holds the barrel together, who presents good things.
(32) AGILMA, the exalted one, who tears off the crown from the wrong position,
Who creates the clouds above the waters, makes enduring aloft.
(3 ZULUM, who designates the fields for the gods, allots the creation,
Who grants portions and food-offerings, tends the shrines.
(34) MUMMU, Creator of heaven and earth, who directs. . . .
The god who sanctifies heaven and earth is, secondly,
(35) ZULUMMAR,
Whom no other among the gods can match in strength.
(35) GISHNUMUNAB, Creator of all people, who made the world regions,
Destroyer of the gods of Tiamat; who made men out of their substance. (90)
(36) LUGALABDUBUR, the king who frustrated the work of Tiamat,
Rooted out her weapons;
Whose foundation is firm in front and in the rear.
(37) PAGALGUENNA, the foremost of all the lords, whose strength is outstanding;
Who is pre-eminent in the royal abode, most exalted of the gods.
(38) LUGALDURMAH, the king, bond of the gods, lord of the Durmah,
Who is pre-eminent in the abode of the gods, most exalted of the gods.
(39) ARANUNNA, counselor of Ea, creator of the gods, his fathers,
Whose princely ways no god whatever can equal.
(40) DUMUDUKU, whose pure dwelling is renewed in Duku;
Dumuduku, without whom Lugalkuduga makes no decision. (100)
(41) LUGALLANNA, the king whose strength is outstanding among the gods,
The lord, strength of Anu, who became supreme at the call of Anshar.
(42) LUGALUGGA, who carried off all of them amidst the struggle,
Who all wisdom encompasses, broad in perception.
(4 IRKINGU, who carried off Kingu in the thick of the battle,
Who conveys guidance for all, establishes rulership.
(44) KINMA, who directs all the gods, the giver of counsel,
At whose name the gods quake in fear, as at the storm.
(45) ESIZKUR shall sit aloft in the house of prayer;
May the gods bring their presents before him,
That from him they may receive their assignments;
None can without him create artful works.
Four black-headed ones are among his creatures;
Aside from him no god knows the answer as to their days.
(46) GIBIL, who maintains the sharp point of the weapon,
Who creates artful works in the battle with Tiamat;
Who has broad wisdom, is accomplished in insight,
Whose mind is so vast that the gods, all of them, cannot fathom it.
(47) ADDU be his name, the whole sky may he cover.
May his beneficent roar ever hover over the earth; (120)
May he, as Mummu, diminish the clouds;
Below, may he furnish sustenance for the people
(48) ASHARU, who, as is his name, guided the gods of destiny;
All of the people are truly in his charge.
(49) NEBIRU shall hold the crossings of heaven and earth,
So that the gods cannot cross above and below,
They must wait upon him.
Nebiru is the star which in the skies is brilliant.
Truly he holds the central position, they shall bow down to him,
Saying: "He who the midst of the Sea restlessly crosses,
Let `Crossing' be his name, who controls its midst.
May they uphold the course of the stars of heaven;
May he shepherd all the gods like sheep.
May he vanquish Tiamat; may her life be strait and short!
Into the future of mankind, when days have grown old,
May she recede without cease and stay away forever.
Because he created the spaces and fashioned the firm ground,
Father Enlil called his name (50) LORD OF THE LANDS.'
When all the names which the Igigi proclaimed,
Ea had heard, his spirit rejoiced,
Thus:

"He whose names his fathers have glorified,
He is indeed even as I; his name shall be Ea. (140)
All my combined rites he shall administer;
All my instructions he shall carry out!"

With the title "Fifty" the great gods
Proclaimed him whose names are fifty and made his way supreme.

Epilogue

Let them be kept in mind and let the leader explain them.
Let the wise and the knowing discuss them together.
Let the father recite them and impart to his son.
Let the ears of shepherd and herdsman be opened.
Let him rejoice in Marduk, the Enlil of the gods,
That his land may be fertile and that he may prosper. (150)
Firm in his order, his command unalterable,
The utterance of his mouth no god shall change.
When he looks he does not turn away his neck;
When he is angry, no god can withstand his wrath.
Vast is his mind, broad his sympathy,
Sinner and transgressor may come before him.
He wrote down and thereby preserved it for the future.
The dwelling of Marduk which the gods, the Igigi, had made,
. . . let them speak. (160)
. . . the song of Marduk,
Who vanquished Tiamat and achieved the kingship.
**************************************************
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Old 07-03-03   #23
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What a thread stopper that was Dyshade.. or should I say me, since the light is convinced you would resort to aliases to retort his comments...
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Old 07-03-03   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Common Sense
What a thread stopper that was Dyshade.. or should I say me, since the light is convinced you would resort to aliases to retort his comments...
Ok talking to yourself, means your crazy!
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Old 07-03-03   #25
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Uhm, The Light, just once and for all.. Dyshade and Common Sense are not the same person, and I can categorically state that. So please stop basing your responses on that presumption.
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Old 07-06-03   #26
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So, just out of curiosity, according to Christians and their book of reference, how old is the world? This planet...? Any dates?
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Old 07-06-03   #27
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Originally posted by TheObserver
So, just out of curiosity, according to Christians and their book of reference, how old is the world? This planet...? Any dates?
No dates in the bible.
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Old 07-06-03   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheLight
No dates in the bible.
No, no dates in the Bible, but if you take it as literal truth, and go back to the old testament where the lineage is written out ("so-and-so begot so-and-so, who begot so-and-so..") and track it all out, adding the years following Christ's crucifixtion, it totals out to approximately 6000 years. So according to the Bible, the earth is a mere 6000 years old, rather than the hundreds of millions of years of age it should have, according to the scientific community.
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Old 07-06-03   #29
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Re: prove the Bible wrong...please!

Quote:
Originally posted by SatansEnemy
i want anyone out there to prove the Bible to be wrong.
and i want solid proof, not said proof, from a scientist that thinks that their theory does that.
You do realize, of course, that the burden of proof does not lie with the naysayer, but with the person attempting to say that their idea is right...
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Old 07-06-03   #30
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Re: Re: prove the Bible wrong...please!

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Originally posted by Shadowborn
You do realize, of course, that the burden of proof does not lie with the naysayer, but with the person attempting to say that their idea is right...

Very well said. That is indeed the case time and again is it not?!
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Old 07-06-03   #31
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No dates in the bible.

Correct if I am wrong, but the bible does not support the existence (in history) of the dinosaur?
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Old 07-07-03   #32
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Job 38-40
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Old 07-07-03   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadowborn
No, no dates in the Bible, but if you take it as literal truth, and go back to the old testament where the lineage is written out ("so-and-so begot so-and-so, who begot so-and-so..") and track it all out, adding the years following Christ's crucifixtion, it totals out to approximately 6000 years. So according to the Bible, the earth is a mere 6000 years old, rather than the hundreds of millions of years of age it should have, according to the scientific community.
God could have made the earth and everything in it, as old as He wanted to. Adam was made full grown, so was Eve.
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Old 07-07-03   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheLight
Job 38-40
Hmmm... where in Job:38-40 does he mention dinos??? or are you doing that wicked christian thing and using it out of context... lets take a look at Job:38-40 shall we.....

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chapter 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

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chapter 39
1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

4 Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.

5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?

6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.

7 He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.

8 The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.

9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

12 Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?

13 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?

14 Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,

15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.

16 She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;

17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.

18 What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.

19 Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?

20 Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.

21 He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.

22 He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.

23 The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.

24 He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet.

25 He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

26 Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?

27 Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?

28 She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.

29 From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.

30 Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
chapter 40
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,

2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.

22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.

23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.

24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Okies... where are the dinos in there... I sure as hell do not see any being described????

Do you believe in Unicorns???? it does specify them... hehe...

and do not give me that behemoth crap......
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Old 07-07-03   #35
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God could have made the earth and everything in it, as old as He wanted to. Adam was made full grown, so was Eve.
why would he do that???? and it does not mention anything like that in the bible so that is nothing but speculation on your part..... you would think it would mention something so important within the bible..... you rely upon faith I rely upon facts..... either provide proof or just say that it is only your faith.... and not facts....
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Old 07-07-03   #36
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God could have made the earth and everything in it, as old as He wanted to.
This has got to be the dumbest thing I've heard you say yet. So now God's purposely making things look older than they actually are to fool the scientists, I suppose?
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Old 07-08-03   #37
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Know why there were no dates in the bible? CAUSE ITS BULLSHIT. MEN wrote this novel! MEN. Let me ask you a serious question? Did they have TVs back then? Playstations? Nope all they had was liquor and A HELLOVA LOT OF FREE TIME. What did they do you ask? Drank, rambled, and preached. Storytellers my friends, EVERYONE was a storyteller back then. You could say anything you want, who could prove you wrong back then, NOBODY thats who. I would never trust what somebody else believed was the truth, another human being who knows as little as the rest of us. OH BUT HE WAS JESUS, who because god was so genious, was a mere MAN. Flesh and blood, with what we spose to swallow as magical abilities.... COME ON. The only prove anyone has about his magical abilites and heritage is in a book HE FUCKING WROTE! Wouldn't you make yourself a tad exaggerated? Ya you would, much like Jesus did. I love that man though, I'm willing to bet he used the whole "Son of god" thing to get more then one virgin to drop her panties in the name of everything holy. He was a hussler, con-artist, and all around smart fucking buisnessman, except it caught up with him. Ahh well, he died for our sins, yet we still sin everyday. Every second we live somewhere someone sins, but praytell, where is this Jesus now? GOD could just ressurrect (sp?) him again, BOOM we hang em, BAM we sin-free for another 26 seconds. REJOICE WORLD. Ya know Im glad Dyshade has evidence and facts, that way I can't just keep being the factless jackass.
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Old 07-09-03   #38
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This has got to be the dumbest thing I've heard you say yet. So now God's purposely making things look older than they actually are to fool the scientists, I suppose?

Hahaha oh Shadow that was brilliant, thanks! I was about to comment on the absurdity of that very post...
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Old 07-09-03   #39
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Quote:
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Know why there were no dates in the bible? CAUSE ITS BULLSHIT. MEN wrote this novel! MEN. Let me ask you a serious question? Did they have TVs back then? Playstations? Nope all they had was liquor and A HELLOVA LOT OF FREE TIME. What did they do you ask? Drank, rambled, and preached. Storytellers my friends, EVERYONE was a storyteller back then. You could say anything you want, who could prove you wrong back then, NOBODY thats who. I would never trust what somebody else believed was the truth, another human being who knows as little as the rest of us. OH BUT HE WAS JESUS, who because god was so genious, was a mere MAN. Flesh and blood, with what we spose to swallow as magical abilities.... COME ON. The only prove anyone has about his magical abilites and heritage is in a book HE FUCKING WROTE! Wouldn't you make yourself a tad exaggerated? Ya you would, much like Jesus did. I love that man though, I'm willing to bet he used the whole "Son of god" thing to get more then one virgin to drop her panties in the name of everything holy. He was a hussler, con-artist, and all around smart fucking buisnessman, except it caught up with him. Ahh well, he died for our sins, yet we still sin everyday. Every second we live somewhere someone sins, but praytell, where is this Jesus now? GOD could just ressurrect (sp?) him again, BOOM we hang em, BAM we sin-free for another 26 seconds. REJOICE WORLD. Ya know Im glad Dyshade has evidence and facts, that way I can't just keep being the factless jackass.

There are many specific dates in the Bible (all of the New Testament is pretty accurately dated, and much of the Old Testament is dated in the Jewish Calendar, which itself measures years since the convenant). Also, people didn't need playstations, etc., because they had to work from sunrise to sundown to scrap by a living, and have to deal with raising seven to twelve kids per family, most of whom died before reaching adolescence. Seeing as how your ramblings are therefore based on inaccuracies and not anything resembling facts, I consider that a good reason to ignore your angry, oh-so-rebellious tirades.
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Old 07-09-03   #40
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15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

This and I think in 41 it talks about the Laviathon. These are the closet you will find.
The bible doesn't mention alot of things, that has nothing to do with the relationship between God and man. No soaps(tv), no movies, and no candy bars.
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