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Old 03-05-02   #21
Morhdian
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heres another one for you. If God is all forgiving then why is there a hell? Why is satan or what ever damned there. Shouldn't God have forgiven him? And whats the use in sin any ways? The big man up stairs is just going to forgive you any way? Meh christianity is just.........wronge.
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Old 03-05-02   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denalay
Is'nt it odd how almost every major religion and culture has oppressed women throughout history?

Why is that? I'm not frightened or intimitated by women?
Please note that I said "almost all major religions " I know that there are exceptions.
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Old 03-06-02   #23
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Denalay - I would say most all major religions NOW. In the ancient world, the worship of the goddess (which therefore gave women more rights than men) had been around for ages, most cultures believing that way. The only difference between then and now is that the relgions worshiping the goddesses were not known for killing those in other religions.
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Old 03-06-02   #24
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Morhdian - Hell is the Christian form of karma. That is about one of the few justifable parts of the Bible. And God is only forgiving in the New Testement. In the Old Testement he is a angry and vengeful god. That kind of ties into my theory that there is more than one god... which I think I can prove through the Bible, but I don't want to get into that.

So yes, bassically Christians are hypocrites. (surprised anyone?) They say that if the Bible contridicts itself, it's message is made void. And yet, two faces of god seem to me to be contridictions.
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Old 03-06-02   #25
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You should check out the "Why?" thread started by Samiching Sphyre.
It's long as the 9 circles of hell, but some great points are made, and the Christian man trying to convert us was hung by his own rope in another thread; he has yet to post a reply.
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Old 03-06-02   #26
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ah deamons I'm all to fimiliar with those.
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Old 03-07-02   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sphyre


Dark Messiah and Denalay:
No every religion through out history has not found women weak and therefore repressed them. We view women as physically weaker than men because in our culture it is true. However, if women in our culture were bred for strength and men bred to sit at home and take care of children our view would be drastically different.


Ummm...no.


Women being (on average) physically weaker than men (in most areas) is pretty much as close to accept scientific fact as you can get. This is just pure evolution; in some species, the male is physically dominant, and in others, it's the female. A couple thousand years of breeding isn't enough to switch from one to the other.


As for God and Hell: the answer is that there is no Hell. Hell was adopted from the Greek religions, based on Tartarus, as Christianity spread into Greece, probably originally used as a metaphor for being outside of God's love. Whatever the case, by the time of Emperor Constantine it was being taken literally, and has been ever since- however, Jesus never once spoke of Hell in life, in the Gospels, only in the Letters, which are obviously more dubious since rather than the mostly corresponding accounts of several Disciples who knew her in life, you have single-person accounts of being visited by ghosts in visions. The Jews of course, and the God of the Old Testament, had no Hell. Actually, I call myself Christian, but in all actuality I'm closer to a Messiahnic (however it's spelled) Jew, in that I don't believe in Hell, or several other items of Christian dogma. But eh, nothing and no one's perfect.


And actually, if you'll look back further, plenty of Mother Goddess figures demanded human sacrifice, or constant war- Artemis and Athena were not the most pacifist and nurturing of figures, no?
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Old 03-07-02   #28
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Matthew 5:21-30
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

As quoted by Jesus Christ from the Sermon on the Mount
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Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Old 03-07-02   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Exhorting
Matthew 5:21-30
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

As quoted by Jesus Christ from the Sermon on the Mount
ahh.. I see you were there and heard that from the mouth of Jesus himself??? or herself as DM would expostulate...
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Old 03-07-02   #30
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gifts at the altar? isn't that a paganistic practice? Gifts at the altar to offer to the god or goddess you wish to invoke for their aid? Is it adultry if permission is agreed, and the couple was never married before the eyes of god, but of a judge, and what if a girl looks lustfully at a man, because it's not stated, it's not a sin? and what if both hands sin? how are you able to cut them both off?

just curious
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Old 03-07-02   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Exhorting
Matthew 5:21-30
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

As quoted by Jesus Christ from the Sermon on the Mount

I'll bet you anything you're using the King James translation.
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Old 03-07-02   #32
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First I would like to say, Exorting, this is a thread I started to ask christians a question, but you didn't give me an answer. You're just trying to save my ass. I ALREADY WAS A CHRISTIAN! And I knew what I was doing. I didn't leave the church simply based on that fact that I would be cool. So please don't reply unless you have something constructive to say.

Dark Messhiah - That is not true. Yes, women ARE physically weaker than men, but I (me personally) feel THAT is a product of our envoriment. There are still cultures today (or at least as of the late 70s) that do not know that intercourse produces a child. Without that knowledge it would appear that the women is the only one who could produce a child. This made her the most important part of soiety as she was the only one who could make their race live on (as far as they knew)

Placing a female deity (who for a while seems to rule alone) in charge of their world, they themselves worked harder than the men. While orignally men may have been stronger, their jobs were that of weaving and cooking. This sit-at-home lifestyle did not give them the chance to exersie, which as we know means you get fat or just get weaker.

The women on the other hand were hunting, they actually WERE the warriors in most of the cultures, they ruled their tribes. The fact taht they were exersising made them physically stronger than the men around them

Denalay - As for the reference to hell, I do not mean that is where the first story of a terrible underworld or afterlife started, but as far as most of the things stated in the Bible it makes the most sense to me as to why it's there.
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Old 03-07-02   #33
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Sphyre,
My sincerest apologies for offending you. I in no way meant to do you harm. I was simply attempting to point out to Dark Messiah that Jesus Christ did indeed mention hell.

And here is the King James Version for Dark Messiah with apologies once again to Sphyre.

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
Matthew 5:21-30 King James Version
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I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Old 03-07-02   #34
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Thank you Exhorting
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Old 03-07-02   #35
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In a translation of a translation of a translation, perhaps. Ever read the original Aramaic?
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Old 03-07-02   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sphyre

Dark Messhiah - That is not true. Yes, women ARE physically weaker than men, but I (me personally) feel THAT is a product of our envoriment. There are still cultures today (or at least as of the late 70s) that do not know that intercourse produces a child. Without that knowledge it would appear that the women is the only one who could produce a child. This made her the most important part of soiety as she was the only one who could make their race live on (as far as they knew)

Placing a female deity (who for a while seems to rule alone) in charge of their world, they themselves worked harder than the men. While orignally men may have been stronger, their jobs were that of weaving and cooking. This sit-at-home lifestyle did not give them the chance to exersie, which as we know means you get fat or just get weaker.

The women on the other hand were hunting, they actually WERE the warriors in most of the cultures, they ruled their tribes. The fact taht they were exersising made them physically stronger than the men around them

None of this really adresses the point, even were I to accept what's obviously conjencture and hypothesis as fact. Women having higher status in a hunter-gatherer society in no way effects whether or not men or women have biologically higher muscle mass or larger body size.
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