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Old 02-25-02   #21
GrimHaven
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The real question

I'm new to these forums, so forgive me for jumping into the conversation out of nowhere but....

I think the real question is whether or not cloning is "unnatural" as a function of evolution? The arguments against either genetic tampering and cloning have always been essentially the same thing: It's not "natural". This however is a rather limited view of existence.

Humans have evolved into an intelligent being. The classic argument that a human would lose if you stuck him into a room with a tiger is mute because a human wouldn't have been dumb enough to go into the room in the first place (metaphorically speaking). That we would not be at the top of the food chain without the tools we build is also mute, as those tools are part of our evolution. Take away a tiger's strength, you have a house cat. Take away a bird's flight, you have dinner. Take away a humans' intelligence, you have something that isnt a human.

My point is that part of our evolution is the expansion of what we know. Natural Selection hasn't been removed from the equation. On the contrary, it closes in on us every day. New diseases, overpopulation, we are faced with predators even now.

We have evolved past the "eat your neighbors" stage (well... except for a rare few maybe) but we continue to evolve in terms of intelligence, just as other species evolve in terms of speed or strength. Whether or not we survive is still dependant on how much we really learn and how far we go.

I'm not saying cloning is a "good" thing but it is inevitable....

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Old 02-25-02   #22
GrimHaven
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The real question

I'm new to these forums, so forgive me for jumping into the conversation out of nowhere but....

I think the real question is whether or not cloning is "unnatural" as a function of evolution? The arguments against either genetic tampering and cloning have always been essentially the same thing: It's not "natural". This however is a rather limited view of existence.

Humans have evolved into an intelligent being. The classic argument that a human would lose if you stuck him into a room with a tiger is mute because a human wouldn't have been dumb enough to go into the room in the first place (metaphorically speaking). That we would not be at the top of the food chain without the tools we build is also mute, as those tools are part of our evolution. Take away a tiger's strength, you have a house cat. Take away a bird's flight, you have dinner. Take away a humans' intelligence, you have something that isnt a human.

My point is that part of our evolution is the expansion of what we know. Natural Selection hasn't been removed from the equation. On the contrary, it closes in on us every day. New diseases, overpopulation, we are faced with predators even now.

We have evolved past the "eat your neighbors" stage (well... except for a rare few maybe) but we continue to evolve in terms of intelligence, just as other species evolve in terms of speed or strength. Whether or not we survive is still dependant on how much we really learn and how far we go.

I'm not saying cloning is a "good" thing but it is inevitable....

GrimHaven
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Old 02-26-02   #23
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Quote:
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I don't think they'd be able to clone a human in the next five years, it sooooo hardly ever works, there's soooo many complications etc etc at the moment, but I don't think there's anything morally wrong with it.
over here it's common consensus that humans have already been cloned. it's only now that scientists are appealling publicly for it to be funded.

that's one thing about different countries/societies isn't it? here, every person that i've talked to is pretty much against cloning, but i go on the net and people agree or don't mind it also. with that in mind it seems there's something controlling our views:media anyone?
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Old 02-26-02   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by masochist

with that in mind it seems there's something controlling our views:media anyone?
yes.. those damned teletubbies .. and their vacuumatic !!
they have my neighbors brainwashed , that’s why i steal the cable signal .. that way they won't trace me ... i used to put poisoned chocolate cookies .. to kill them , but i stopped when several children dropped like flies .. i really didn't mind but those annoying citations ... bah ...
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Old 02-26-02   #25
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masochist- i don't think I can believe that a human has already been cloned, even in a sectret military or government lab or whatever.

if you look into the industry it's really still in it's infancy.
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Old 02-27-02   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elf
masochist- i don't think I can believe that a human has already been cloned, even in a sectret military or government lab or whatever.

if you look into the industry it's really still in it's infancy.
Cloning a sheep or cloning a human... The procedure is exactly the same. Poor woman who carries the damn child... But believe me, it is no longer outside our capabilities...

Growing clones in large tanks however, is something that is still sci-fi material.
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Old 02-27-02   #27
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not necesarrily, all they would have to do is synthesize the conditions... i think the main challenge would be to create a working system for the support and replacement of amniotic fluid...
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Old 02-27-02   #28
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the procedure might be essentially the same, but success rates vary a lot between species


Quote:
the gene for IGF2R is not imprinted in primates, even though it is in rodents, pigs, sheep, and other animals that researchers have cloned. So, people have two active copies of this growth-suppressing gene instead of just one.

that would kind of indicate that it should be easier to clone primates as clones often suffer from enlarged organs among hundreds of other complaints.

But it's just an example of why it's different, cloning primates has been really difficult in practice. Cloning sheep is quite hit and miss itself anyway.
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Old 02-27-02   #29
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*shrugs*
it could go either way. but do you really think that we know all that goes on in science and genetics?
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Old 02-28-02   #30
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probably not, but I can't see that the military or government would have a reason to create a cloned baby apart from to be naughty and do it before it was allowed, and then they wouldn't be able to take credit for the first time it was done? I dunno, if they are doing it they are wasting a lot of time really!
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Old 03-03-02   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elf

clones often suffer from enlarged organs


oh ...really!
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Old 03-04-02   #32
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har har...

no it's quite horrible really as they look all normal when they are born and grow up a bit then die
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Old 03-04-02   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elf
probably not, but I can't see that the military or government would have a reason to create a cloned baby apart from to be naughty and do it before it was allowed, and then they wouldn't be able to take credit for the first time it was done? I dunno, if they are doing it they are wasting a lot of time really!
i was thinking more along the lines of scientists who had access to all the knowledge of animal cloning and were itching to do it with people and so experimented without anyone's permission. e.g. using stolen embryos that were supposed to be destroyed or ones that were left over from fertility clinics for the purpose of research.

it didn't cross my mind once that the military would have started it off. but they could. why they'd bother i don't know.
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Old 03-05-02   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elf
har har...

no it's quite horrible really as they look all normal when they are born and grow up a bit then die
I know .. that was just me being awfully immature .. “smiles at the pretty lady …”
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Old 03-07-02   #35
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yeah I guess a nutty professor could just do it for fun one afternoon but it's so expensive and time consuming they wouldn't get beyond embryo stage I'd assume.

maybe I'm just putting the way I work onto other people, I would think that if you cloned the first person you'd desire recognition, but perhaps everyone isn't like that.

damian - if you were calling me a pretty lady then thanks! lol
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