these are interesting points

I would say that hate and the twisting of a message for personnal gain, although intertwined with religion, unfortunatly are not souly depedent upon religion, so in my opionin these are not reasons to base the doom of our society on religion "in the hands of man". In other words with or without religion our society would be doomed if there were not other factors motivating people to act in a mutualy beneficial manner.

I am confused how personnel religion allows an individual to ascend beyond the herd mentality, do you mean an indivduals interprtations of a religious idea?

Actually he's making good points, your examples just suck. If you're dealing with FACTS then you have to be specific with your details, there are ways to survive falls off of tall buildings, it has been done. There are ways to put your hand in fire without being cooked. However if you had used a nice solid mathematical fact, then he could have found no flaws in your argument.

Fact: 2+2=4

Good. Solid. Indisputable. Strong like bull!

why shouldn't it?

that's why i started with the anne hutchinson quote...

personal religion should be something in a person's heart, that spark that makes them want to become a better person, not because a book, another person, or even a god tells them to be good...but because it's something they choose to improve their existance on this plane and living with other intelligent existances.

if they find it, believe in it and let it bloom within the self, choosing supernatural enforcement or not...there's no chance of someone else using that personal religion for what organized religions are known for. if you look at the founders and original speakers of the current major world religions, their messages were good, their goals were admirable, they represented a way of living life, that most realized was harmonious, it's only in more recent times that some allowed evil to twist and corrupt their messages, justifying hate and violence with words that were meant to inspire love, understanding and unity.

that's the difference between organized and personal religion, personal stems from the source, organized has been passed through several eras, each of the leaders in those times altering it to suit their needs and influenced by their selfish desires.

i guess where i get confused is the diffrence between personal values and personal religion. The two are certainly intertwined but are also mutualy exclusive. For example it is not necassary to have religious beliefs in order to achieve all of the things you mention. I think associating those things with religion has inhernt flaws.

Ascending the herd mentatality is also not always a good thing. Jeffery Dhamer did it, that of course ended poorly. One most ascend to a something that benfits the herd hmmm

I also feel that the current social trend is to see organized religion as a corrupted enitity and a root of many problems. There are instances in which this is true however there are just as many instances in which great good has been done. Man kind needs something to fight about if it wasnt religion it would be something else

As in all things

he had no religion...nothing higher in his life to inspire in him a better way of meeting romantic partners, his goal was to make a love slave, he failed in his interpersonal relations. if one genuinrely loves, they don't need to make anyone love them.

that's why people will always need organized leaders, rules, laws and all the other things that are more often abused and twisted, rather than serving any justice...using a book to judge right and wrong, those who claim to be the experts and spokesmen for a god...they were based in an organized religion, and will always require an organized religion to continue to function.

it's not my fault if they fail to see that the solutions lay with in themselves...most fail to understand that it's just wrong to violate another living thing, on any level...it's sad so many require external, forces to point this out to them, but i dread the thought of a world with no religions, no god, just the current state of humanity and the ability to do as they wish?

i suppose i seperate it by the fact that religion tends to require the belief in something higher, personal values can be achieved in any manner, but are usually reflected from a nurtured influence...children grow up knowing it's wrong to hit because they've had a parent drilling them in the rights and wrongs, based on societies perception of good people...finding a personal religion a person develops their values, on their own, based from personal experiences...not through punishments and threats, but through a desire to live harmoniously with the universe, finding their own path, regardless of societies perceptions.

i won't kill people, because it would not make me feel good...not because the law, a god or a religion tells me not to...oddly enough a lot of organize religions do have a history of killing people for sacrifices, yet it's no longer allowed. in a society dominated by the same religions...religion will not be the doom of us.

The problem is people nitpick. Why?? Because they try to backpedal. regardless of my examples and how much they suck the irrefutable reality exists that facts are just that... facts... and they are very real. if you do not think so please be my guest and leap off that 80 story building with just your body and nothing to stop you

You didn't specify we had to use just our body and nothing to stop us in your example, you just stated that anyone who jumps off an 80 story building will die. Facts are completely based upon the circumstances which control them, and when speaking in indisputable FACTS you have to be very specific. Thats my whole point, its not about nitpicking.

and a large gust of wind comes up, lifting the person and depositing them with little more than a few bump, scratches, maybe a break or two, into a truck with a bed full of mattresses and it's a miracle.

this is becoming a silly arguement.

Neither.
You can only damn or save yourself.
With or without being religious, as people have free choice and mind.

So from now on I will remember to satisfy the innate nitpickers amongst us by being very specific with my statements so as to avoid confusing those of us out there that wish to pry into every crevice seeking a loophole to dismiss simple fact

this statment is like a loaded gun

lets load that gun with a german solider. That solider knows if he doesnt arrest that little Jewish girl the ss is going to come looking for him. So what does he do? what would you do?

Religion is the root of our social conscience, without it we would not share common morals, nor would we be free to make a choice, there would not be a choice to make.

No. Thinking that religion is the root of a moral conscience is basically damning the human race and suggesting that alone and without religion we are no more than craven immoral animals. This is not true. Morals do not have to be handfed with religion. We have a Moral Conscience which is completely seperate from religious beliefs.

Exactly...G'd does not make people be evil or good...it's the freedom of choice and mind, we can use it in the way we want...choose bad or good to say it in black and white.
People are not puppets on strings.
If we can't make our own choices in life there can't be growth and learning.
That is what I believe.

Dyshade

a unfied moral conscience is the key, you dont have this without some form of orginzed religion, it has its pitfalls and in some area's of the world religion is becoming less necassary. However the moral conscience enjoyed by western societies has been injected by shared religious beliefs. You owe the abailty to reject organized religion to religion itself, religion is the training wheels on the tricycle

cloudy

what do you think gives you the abaility to make a choice? The whole concept of right and wrong stems from religion.

Maybe for you it does?
Not for me, I think for myself, I weigh my actions as I see fit or not.
Yes I am religious, however religion is not _the law_ it is a guideline, I am not orthodox or extremistic in my views....my free mind was given to me to think out on my own if something is right or not...
What challenge is there if you woulnd't have to make that choice yourself.
What can we learn from if we can't make those choices for ourselves...
Doing the right thing is most of the time harder than giving in to temptations or chosing the easy way out which might not be so good...and that's exactly the meaning of free mind and choice. If you understand what I'm trying to say, hard to express in words (especially when english isn't my 1st language ;-) )

i developed my own sense of right and wrong searching for a religion, not living with one, i'm still not involved with a relgion...the concept of right and wrong is instituted by society, deriving it from the religion of the moment...but there are many people who have no interest in religion but behave and treat people better than most fundamental bible bashers.

Nononononono...... right and wrong stem from humanity.... US!!!! NOT religion. From the time we were running around in packs/gangs/tribes we have based our Moral compass of right and wrong on our packmates/gangmembers/tribesmembers overall feelings. Right and wrong stem from SOCIETY and living amongst others of our kind.

Religion has absolutely nothing to do with Morals or our feelings of right and wrong.

Religion is all about control and obedience.