People can be easily tricked into seeing and hearing things that have no basis in the real world. Fooling your senses is not a hard thing to do. What some people see as the activity of Ghosts and Spirits, i see as an example of how the human mind interacts with environmental cues and conditions. You know, there was once a case of a Scientist who kept seeing dark forms behind him in his lab, and feeling a presence. He had convinced himself, for a time, that the lab he worked in at nights was haunted. It turned out to be a loose fan fitting. It was vibrating at a frequency which causes hallucinations in the Brain. When it was fixed, the "haunting" was no more.

Psychic ability has been tested time and time again. Nothing particularly interesting has been found. As for paranormal sites...well, i take them with a crate of salt.

Science is not destructive. Science adds to our knowledge and understanding. However, i do agree that some Scientists are destructive. Not good ones, though.

No, they are not the same idea. One is an idea backed up only by Spiritual thinking and the desire for it to be true. The other is a Scientific theory, based on real objective evidence.

In the days when Magick was supposedly dominant, only Scientific thought and methods created progress. Remember that.

Well, ok. That is a fair request. I will give you an example. How come Magick users cannot fly? I'd be impressed by someone who can take off and land on my roof, with only their own Magick powers. Something along that line. Oh, and i'm talking about doing it in the waking world. Not in some Astral realm.

people can not fly because they lack the basic requirements to do so...i think you skeptic spend to much watching the commercialised, sensational version of magicks...magick to me is simply being in tune with forces of nature(something science has witnessed) and being able to use your mind to influence them...some may call it mind over matter, some may call it magick, but it's there...

so give me examples of a lamp shade spinning and a tv turning off or on by command that would just be me..."a tricking of my senses" what point is there in tricking them?

Why is Magick so limited? If it is such a powerful force, you should be able to use it for real mind over matter displays. Not just easily explained things. It seems to me, that it is more about you wanting to feel connected to the world around you, than having any real influence.

How do you know the lamp did? Do you have any recorded images of this happening? Did you check the tv?

because it's required to be within the confines of the natural order of things...one can not do what nature does not intend to be done...if she wanted us to fly, we'd have been gifted with wings and hollow bones...

how do you know electricity is real? have you ever seen that? There are instances of "witches" calling winds, changing weather etc...i have not witnessed it personally, but did you witness newton discovering gravity, einstein developing e=mc2. How do you know they are real and not just fabrications of scientists trying to explain away natural phenomena...it's easier to say everything is a big magnet beneath the earth, rather than admit they don't know...that's the difference between practicioners and scientist...practicioner are willing to admit they don't know it all...rather than trying to prove we do...

i know the lampshade happened, i saw it with my own eyes, i can't explain it, maybe it was just and earthquake yet the fishtank next to it had no ripples, we had asked for proof that it was indeed there.

to influence something is to have an amount of control over it...no one can control nature...she controls us...but that's another difference...scientist wish to control what they don't understand...practitioners accept that they can't control it all...

who's better for the earth?

You can easily see electricity itself,observe what it can do, feel it and if you`re unlucky be killed by it.
She doesnt control me, just the environment.
For the earth? Animals are probably better on the whole than any group of humans for a ecosystem.

You mean Magick has to work within the confines which are being defined using Science? Sounds about right.

Scientists don't know it all, but they are helping explain things in working terms. Unlike practitioners.

You saw it happen and came to the conclusion that it was something to do with Psychic energy or Ghosts? I'd be working on finding an explanation that does not require such a leap.

Scientists wish to understand, yes. I think you have a rather twisted view of Scientists overall. They are not all out to create monsters and mayhem.

no only destroy the monsters to make order of a world they do not understand...not science but nature...that's what's going to destroy this world...scientists are trying to mess with the natural balance...you place your faith in man, i place mine in nature and all her power...even electricity comes from nature, man just harnessed it...

and i agree red, animals are best for this planet...kill of a mamority(about 99.5 percent of humans...and then a natural balance will be reestablished...but i tend to be more of a naturalist than a humanist...

Nature cares nothing for us. Science is our tool to help ourselves. We may use it badly at times, but the fault is with us, not Science. We should respect both Nature and Science, but be aware that they are very different.

i don't agree with too much i read on the web, but this i did...

http://members.aol.com/themorrigu/magick.html

As you travel the various Pagan sites on the web; read books on Witchcraft, Paganism, and magick; and meet and speak to other Witches, Pagans, and Magickians, you will probably run across the following definition: "Magick is the changing of the consciousness to conform with the will". My own first teacher in Witchcraft used the following definition (tho I AM paraphrasing a bit): "Magick is when a set procedure of words, thoughts, and actions bring about a desired goal, and science can't explain why it works -- YET!!!"

My own favorite definition is : "Magick, or a spell, is a combination of prayer/meditation and/or as-yet undiscovered science." As you can see, my definition includes both of the previously-mentioned definitions.

Prayer and meditation DO change lives. It has been said that Prayer is talking to The Divine, and meditation is listening. Witches believe that ALL of nature, including ourselves as human beings, is the manifestation of Divinity. Meditation allows you to find out what's going on in your deepest subconscious, and prayer allows your conscious mind to communicate with your subconscious in a method which it can understand.

Many Witches utilize certain tools in their magickal practice -- candles of various colors, incense, crystals and gemstones, cauldrons, blades, wands or staffs, and the list goes on. These tools are merely that -- tools. They serve to provide images that the subconscious will recognize and understand more clearly than mere words. It is for this reason that we sometimes phrase the wording of our spells/prayers in rhyming format -- to speak to the subconcious more clearly.

Magick as science can be seen throughout history. A few centuries ago, Pagan midwives in Europe would have water brought to them as they tended women in labor. This water usually came from bodies of water (lakes/streams/wells) considered sacred to the Mother Goddess. They would wash their own hands, and the soon-to-be-mother. After the child was born, s/he would also be washed with the water, and so would the mother. These midwives did this purely for religio-magickal purposes. People didn't know about bacteria and virus' at the time! When the Christian church came to power in the area, they banished such practices because they were considered to be part of the old religion. Thousands of women and children died from infections that set in after the birthing process.

Another example would be the ancient practice of packing a wound with moldy bread. Bread was, and still is, made from grain. Grain was a symbol of life, and the benevolent nature of the Lord and Lady, a gift to the people to sustain life and prosperity. For such a gift to produce MORE life would have indicated great healing and strengthening properties! This was another practice banished by the Christian church in the early days of its power -- again, seen as a practice of the old religion. The more recent discovery of Penicillan was because a scientist decided to investigate an "old wives tale"!

What was considered magick yesterday, is now considered science. What is considered magick today may well be the science of tomorrow. Those of us who do spells, and bring about magick, for the most part, don't really bother to much with the "why's" of its effectiveness, but only focus on the fact that it IS effective.



In my experience, when a spell is done "right", it tends to work in very natural ways. If you do a spell to gain money, it will most likely manifest itself in the form of a job offering, or a well-deserved raise, or a chance for some over-time at the job that you currently have. Magick is NOT an alternative to working for your goals in a day-to-day fashion. A spell helps you to keep in mind your goal, and be more open to opportunities as they present themselves. It also works to clear, or make evident, obstacles to that goal, so that you may remove them, or find a way around them before they become a big problem.

This is not to say that occasionally the spell does not work in ways that are, in a word, astonishing. This however, is not the most common way that they work. The real magick happens INSIDE the caster, transforming him or her into someone who CAN achieve the desired goal.

so wipe out most of humanity...let the strong survive in nature and let things be how they were before science and man tried taking the world for their own...when man believes himself a greater power than nature...that's not right...nature made us, we came from nature, we should nurture her, not destroy her! Man thorugh science is seeing to that! Like many skeptics they fail to see the importance of nature and our well being, seeking themselves to right what is wrong...egotistically thinking the earth is ours...she gave us life, we did not give her life. *shrugs* but too many no longer respect their creators, why should i expect anything more from scientists!

It was discovered by chance, there was no investigation into the old wives tale.

You think skeptics fail to see the importance of our natural environment? Some people do. Some might even be skeptics, but they certainly do not have to be. Science is not to blame for pollution. Greed is. Science is not good or evil, but it can be used for either end.

Creators? I don't believe i was created, but i see the importance of keeping our home clean.

"To accept everything without reflection, contemplation, and thoughtfulness would be as foolish as rejecting everything in the same manner. Science is the art of observing carefully with an unbiased, non-prejudical eye.

Our beliefs can be altered by the power and immediacy of personal experience. You can begin to understand something when you experience its essence. Your belief becomes a knowing."

-Dr. Brian Weiss

Progress is not always linear, remember that.

That was rather shocking and a little unclear. Just what exactly did you mean by this post? Rather "tell them they're cursed" instead of "risking good karma"?????

Belief and subjective "knowing" can be linked together. I'm not arguing about opinions, i am arguing about evidence and facts. Science is about objectivity, yes. That makes it better for understanding how things work, than Religion and Spirituality. But Religion and Spirituality attempt to answer the why questions. Questions that we ask, wanting an answer which reflects our own internal desires. Some Higher Power that certain people crave and hope exists. It does not interest me. I want answers that have more substance.

Science is far from linear, but it strives to be valid and reliable.

i believe it Is true that science, not nature will be what is our inevitable demise. nature