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Synikul · 03-06-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

I know, geez. You can't even commit criminally negligent homicide anymore without people getting their panties in a bunch.

That's correct, because everyone knows that when a bomb, disguised as a car, goes off right next to you, followed by gunfire from multiple directions, with bullets hitting the pavement and the vehicle you're in starts happening, the first thing everyone should do is stop, calmly assess the situation, make a careful determination of exactly where the shots are coming from, and calmly fire directly to that point. All this without shitting your pants in fear.

Anyone who fails to do that in a manner that is 100% perfect for the Monday morning quarterbacks who will be reviewing the event from the safety of an office somewhere is obviously a homicidal maniac who should be locked up.

As we speak there are 12 Marines sitting in the slammer in San Diego for shooting up the wrong house in response to a similar ambush in Haditha, Iraq. I blame Bush for this travesty.

Iron's Rite · 03-07-07

I agree with your conclusion.

thefr0g · 03-07-07

What the Civilians need to do, is stop allowing militant insurgents to "flee into their house". The civilians need to stop taking shit from the insurgents, they need to step up and take their country back from these lunatics, rather than cowering in fear. Innocent casualties happen in war, sorry. The media is to blame for playing up these stories so huge and tugging everyone's heartstrings for all the innocent life that is being cruelly snuffed by american fighters.... its BS. Let them do their job, or this stalemate will continue forever.

Dyshade · 03-07-07

We are somewhat to blame for this. Our government came over there and told them everything would be fine once they helped us depose Saddam. That was an outright fucking lie. We would be pretty fucking arrogant to think that we can end in one fell swoop animosities that have been bred into these peoples for thousands of years. It just ain't gonna happen. But I do agree. They need to get thier heads out of thier asses(they being the Iraqi people) and stop taking this shit. They need to realize that they are all Iraqi irregardless of religious background. Or we need to just get the hell out of there and let them kill each other like they have been doing for thousands of years.

Synikul · 03-07-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefr0g

What the Civilians need to do, is stop allowing militant insurgents to "flee into their house". The civilians need to stop taking shit from the insurgents, they need to step up and take their country back from these lunatics, rather than cowering in fear.

What does it tell you about the "civilians" when they don't do those things? The minute we leave Afghanistan, it's going right back to the Taliban, or something very much like them with a different name, and it doesn't matter if we stay there for one more week or one more decade.

In Iraq, they do take action instead of cowering in fear, but the action they take is to empower their own militia based on their own group affiliation. When we leave Iraq, again in a week or a decade, doesn't matter, that place is going to fly apart in three different directions. It will start with the Shia and Kurds having a big Sunni BBQ in the middle of the country, then Iran will annex the Shia area, with their full cooperation, while the Kurds will be attacked and destroyed from three different directions from Syria, Iran, and Turkey.

There is a way to prevent all of this, and it goes right to the heart of the question you asked at the beginning of this thread. These people don't observe any standards of civilised behavior when they fight each other, and that's the way they have to be fought. If we went Roman on them, with 100 to 1 reprisals on the civilian population every time they step out of line, our goals might be acheivable, but since the political will to do that doesn't exist, we're destined to lose.

Synikul · 03-07-07

double post

FIX THIS FUCKING THING! WEB HOSTING DOESN'T COST THAT GODDAM MUCH!!!!!

Synikul · 03-07-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

We are somewhat to blame for this. Our government came over there and told them everything would be fine once they helped us depose Saddam. That was an outright fucking lie. We would be pretty fucking arrogant to think that we can end in one fell swoop animosities that have been bred into these peoples for thousands of years. It just ain't gonna happen. But I do agree. They need to get thier heads out of thier asses(they being the Iraqi people) and stop taking this shit. They need to realize that they are all Iraqi irregardless of religious background. Or we need to just get the hell out of there and let them kill each other like they have been doing for thousands of years.

That's why I hope the democrats succeed in forcing Bush to pull out our military. They're dying in a pointless excercise.

Dyshade · 03-07-07

And with every soldier lost we lose more of our strength. The United States has a huge bleeding wound right now put there by our own President. The great thing about Presidents is that we can replace them.

If the Dems cannot get an impeachment perhaps at least they can get a troop pull-out within the next year or less. We have bigger and more dangerous creatures lurking about than some piddly ass middle eastern country. But big-oil dollars talk a lot louder than common sense.

Dark Messiah · 03-07-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synikul

That's correct, because everyone knows that when a bomb, disguised as a car, goes off right next to you, followed by gunfire from multiple directions, with bullets hitting the pavement and the vehicle you're in starts happening, the first thing everyone should do is stop, calmly assess the situation, make a careful determination of exactly where the shots are coming from, and calmly fire directly to that point. All this without shitting your pants in fear.

Funnily enough, military training consists of teaching people to do exactly this. Being a soldier is a responsible job. It's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of competence from the people doing it. We ask them to perform their jobs rationally not only to save civilian lives, but to save their own.

You're completely, 100% fucking wrong on this. While cops and soldiers get leeway for reasonable mistakes, it is idiotic to suggest that they can't be arrested for fucking up. It is precisely because the job is so important and high pressure that a level of order must be maintained. If you told troops it was perfectly okay to panic and just kill everyone that moves, they would tend to do that.

And blaming Bush is ridiculous. He's not on the ground, and he's certainly not appraised of the details of either incident. Why are you so vehemently opposed to the judicial system in place to keep our troops accountable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synikul

What does it tell you about the "civilians" when they don't do those things?

They don't want to get caught in a crossfire between the terrorists who routinely firebomb their homes, and the US troops that routinely firebomb their homes? Look, dude, you can't get it both ways. You can't simultaneously say that our troops don't have to worry about civilian deaths and play by the rules of war and don't have to avoid doing damage to civilians, and then expect the civilians on the ground to see us as saints. Why are they going to stand up to guys with guns for US troops? What have US troops done for them? That's a serious question. What the fuck has the US military done for Iraqi civilians? They got rid of Saddam. And so far, has that been to any profit of actual Iraqis?

Quote:

The minute we leave Afghanistan, it's going right back to the Taliban, or something very much like them with a different name, and it doesn't matter if we stay there for one more week or one more decade.

Study history.

Quote:

There is a way to prevent all of this, and it goes right to the heart of the question you asked at the beginning of this thread. These people don't observe any standards of civilised behavior when they fight each other, and that's the way they have to be fought. If we went Roman on them, with 100 to 1 reprisals on the civilian population every time they step out of line, our goals might be acheivable, but since the political will to do that doesn't exist, we're destined to lose.

We've been doing that. I don't know where you got the idea that the military has been walking on eggshells, but it hasn't. In our war against Saddam and against terrorists we have repeatedly fucked up the lives of average Iraqis. And you know what? This is the bullshit that fuels the terrorist recruitment drive.

Synikul · 03-07-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Funnily enough, military training consists of teaching people to do exactly this. Being a soldier is a responsible job. It's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of competence from the people doing it. We ask them to perform their jobs rationally not only to save civilian lives, but to save their own.

You're completely, 100% fucking wrong on this. While cops and soldiers get leeway for reasonable mistakes, it is idiotic to suggest that they can't be arrested for fucking up. It is precisely because the job is so important and high pressure that a level of order must be maintained. If you told troops it was perfectly okay to panic and just kill everyone that moves, they would tend to do that.

And blaming Bush is ridiculous. He's not on the ground, and he's certainly not appraised of the details of either incident. Why are you so vehemently opposed to the judicial system in place to keep our troops accountable?

They don't want to get caught in a crossfire between the terrorists who routinely firebomb their homes, and the US troops that routinely firebomb their homes? Look, dude, you can't get it both ways. You can't simultaneously say that our troops don't have to worry about civilian deaths and play by the rules of war and don't have to avoid doing damage to civilians, and then expect the civilians on the ground to see us as saints. Why are they going to stand up to guys with guns for US troops? What have US troops done for them? That's a serious question. What the fuck has the US military done for Iraqi civilians? They got rid of Saddam. And so far, has that been to any profit of actual Iraqis?

Study history.

We've been doing that. I don't know where you got the idea that the military has been walking on eggshells, but it hasn't. In our war against Saddam and against terrorists we have repeatedly fucked up the lives of average Iraqis. And you know what? This is the bullshit that fuels the terrorist recruitment drive.

Have you ever served, or been in battle? It isn't as easy as you make it out, and no fucking way am I going to presume to second guess the actions of these men from my desk here in Ohio.

Edit:Ahhhh, the calming effects of nicotine, I'll pick this idiocy apart tomorrow.

Dark Messiah · 03-07-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synikul

Have you ever served, or been in battle? It isn't as easy as you make it out, and no fucking way am I going to presume to second guess the actions of these men from my desk here in Ohio.

I've never designed nor built a bridge, nor do I have the capacity to do so. But if a major bridge collapsed on it's first week and killed a hundred and fifty people I'd feel comfortable saying that the architect should be held and investigated.

The really sickening thing is when you actually stop to examine this retarded, Fox News propagated mindset of giving the troops carte blanche to do whatever they like. I mean, what's your message- do you think most of the people serving in the military are sick and twisted enough to want permission to just kill at will, whether civilian or combatant? Is that your conception of "supporting the troops", to tell them that they no longer have moral accountability?

thefr0g · 03-08-07

Its this argument that made me start this thread. Think of Dresden or Hiroshima.... think of the innocents that were killed in those endeavours.... yet we won that war. Is it because we were fighting something that was easy to label as "evil"?

Dark Messiah · 03-08-07

In a word, yes. I think that morality does have an impact upon warfare. In WWII, we were fighting an organization that was atrociously immoral in it's actions amongst it's own people. The Holocaust was not only grossly evil, it was self-destructive- think of the manpower lost, think of the manpower spent committing this mass murder, think of the fear it created within the Nazi Empire and the discontent amongst those who didn't believe that this was either necessary or good. Good PR is invaluable. If you can be viewed as the good guys, occupation and invasion become easy because the people are on your side. The problem in Iraq is that they already have numerous reasons to distrust us as the good guys, given how badly we fucked up the Gulf War. And the sanctions that only tightened Saddam's regime and killed hundreds of thousands through starvation and disease. I think we're at the point in history where anyone who recommends sanctions as a measure to be taken in international affairs, ever, needs to be slapped.

Dark Messiah · 03-17-07

So, did I win, or what?