me again. okay, it says in the Bible that God is all-forgiving, correct? it is. (Psalm 103:2-3, and all throughout the Bible; I think we can pretty much all agree on that).

if God is all-forgiving (which means forgiving everything), what about the one UNFORGIVEABLE sin? the one sin that will get into Hell. if there's one thing, just ONE thing God can't forgive, that's means he isn't all-forgiving because all-forgiving means forgiving everything.

so God isn't all-forgiving?

POECRAFT

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/


-jo

You have a website supply your arguments for you. How very rebellious, in a conformist sort of way.

why do you want to ask these questions? if god really loved you and if he really wanted you to go to heaven he'd make sure you got to see the great things that john and daniel and david saw. i mean your god is "Just" nay? how just is it that you get sent to hell because you don't believe something which is completely absurd, and samuel who didn't know jack shit gets to go to heaven, not because he believed the absurdity, but because god decided that he would give him visions and bla bla bla that would course his opinion on the matter. your stuck basing your opinions on a book written by humans.. and samuel got to form his opinions after hearing voices, seeing visions, and talking with god on a regular basis. sound fair or just?

step back and ask yourself why you don't question wether zeus is existing over in jupiter watching over the happenings here on earth. why do you not ponder wether you should put mirrors on your door to ward off evil spirits? when was the last time you left porridge in your kitchen so you don't upset the kitchen fairy that lives there?

the thing is you were'nt born and raised being taught to fear that fairy in your kitchen, you were'nt taught to put up mirrors so demons would get scared of themselves and run away from your house. but you were raised to fear going to hell because you don't do what the "god" of a certain religion tells you to.

if you were born in greece 2500 years ago you'd be struggling with the notion of not sacrificing shit to your towns local god, because you get a feeling it's bullshit. you'd go through these same feelings of guilt for thinking that your towns diety is balonie, and then you'd have that impending fear in the back of your mind that said diety knows what's going on through your head and that your now facing repurcussions for your lack of faith. you'd then ask around for counseling from your friends on wether you should stop wasting your time with all the balonie(of course greece wasn't so open to disbelief in the pantheon as america is to disbelief in christianity but hypothetically). and the one's who opposed to do what they'd been trained to do would tell you about how absurd the idea of zeus sitting on a cloud being pissed off at his brothers sounds. and then you'd get the little zombies and fearful blind folks telling you about how you must believe in the pantheon and how absurd it is that you could even be here if they didn't exist.

listen, christianity is what you were raised on. if you hadn't been it wouldn't even be a problem. you've heard all your life about how god loves you, and about how he has a wonderful place for his children, and about how he gets all hurt and teary eyed when you don't do what he says. but it only hurts him because he wants what's good for you. and he's trying to show you the way, and that he has a plan and everything is going to work out if you only listen to your heart. because he's sort of sitting in there yelling out instructions. of course this is because you accepted jesus into your heart when you were only ten and had no idea that this might all be bullshit.

the thing is, without this god in the picture, life seems pretty heartless and hopeless. humans don't like that. it scares them. they want to think they'll be here forever, that there is something good at the end, and that some benevolent being is in control here and wouldn't let things turn to shit(at least in the long run because shit always happens. don't worry though it's all part of "the plan"). listen it's a fallacy of the human ego. it's this fallacy that religion thrives on. and it's why christianity has been so popular. but it's bullshit. and the only reason you question wether it's true, is because it's been shoved down your throat since you were little. and letting go of your upbringing is a hard thing to do. especially when it involves the powerful suggestion(and i stress suggestion) that your going to go to hell and suffer for it. alot of people never take off the veil they were handed down from their parents. they live their whole life in a blind stupor. relgion is stupid, god is stupid. if he's really there and if he is really omnescient then he knows how stupid and ridiculous it is that you devote your life to a fairy tale. and it would be unjust for him to make you suffer for it. .it's scary to step back and realize how stupid and absurd the notion of christianity is. but the fear fades when you learn to accept it.

i dunno ive started rambling. but my point was youve been trained to fear letting go of the fairy tale. if you were trained to believe your going to suffer for taking a shit in private all your life you'd be shiting in the town square.

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I do? wasn't aware of that.

Not you DM means 666Queen has.

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blueboy -

why do I want to ask these questions? simple. I'm curious. and I want to know. and this is a place to discuss them and try to get some of the answers I seek. I'm one of those people that need to know. even if I don't care, or go to Hell, or any shit like that. I want to know. does that answer your question?

and, I think you might be under a misconception. I'm in NO WAY Christian. not at all. unfortunately, I'm agnostic. which is like living in limbo your whole life. not much fun I'm sorry to say. why am I agnostic then? well, because, that's all I can be. I don't go for fancy names like "seccular humanist"; besides, I don't like people.

if there's a God, I wish that he would speak to me. or appear in a burning bush. it would make my life nicer if I knew for certain what was going on. but I don't think God works that way, as far as I've heard from my many Christian peoples. part of religion is faith; is believing. another reason I have none...

I agree with you in some ways, though. way back when, the Egyptians created many gods. they had gods of harvest, the sun, the moon...do you know why they were created? the Egyptians looked at the earth, the sun, and the moon and said, "Fuck me. How did all this shit get here?" er, or something like that. then they made up gods to go with everything because it was something they COULDN'T explain. today, I still believe we have some of that. more modernized vestiges, of course. but it's still there. we still have this malevolent being above us, and when there's something happening we can't explain, a common excuse is, "That's God."

I was not raised my whole life being told God loved me. or anything like that. heh, I was raised Catholic. sorry, Catholics. I became this way on my own. I don't know how it is for everyone else, but it was like that for me.

I agree with you when you said that humans don't like the idea of there being no God because life seems heartless and hopeless. this is true. people as a whole are so scared...and insecure. religion/God gives them reassurance.

like I said, my upbringing has nothing to do with it. guess I'm just an exception. or a freak. thanks for your response. I used to be that angry. someday you'll realize people are mostly dumb and become accustomed to it like me. then things'll be different. then you'll be the one with the questions.

No arguments... I think the bible is full of contradictions... in fact that link is about biblical contradictions... I don't see the rebellion, not sure conformity is of any consequence.

-jo

not really, because you can tell your inquiring for reasons that might help you put the fear in the back of your mind at ease. the thing is christians are myopic egotist. put forth some question and they'll find some ridiculous way to find an answer that will fit the puzzle. even if they had to shred the edges and smash the pieces together. you seem to have turned to alot of your christian friends and their mentors for answers. i don't think that will do you any good. because when shit doesn't fit they always use the "it's God's will" or "part of God's plan" cop out.

i would have answered your question from a theological standpoint but it didn't seem like that was what you were looking for. it's a subject im fond of but it's not religion or faith. and i think you were looking for religious input and not a reason why the contradiction exist.

no, im not under a misconception. i knew you were agnostic when i read your first post, the one i replied to a while back. i don't think agnosticism is a proper label though. your post make you sound more like a doubting christian then an agnostic. im agnostic and i think it is much funner then being christian.

this is why i say you sound more like a doubting christian and not an agnostic


maybe i didn't word that right. i did not mean to point towards your upbringing but towards your socialization. and i think your socialization has alot to do with it. if it didn't you wouldn't even bother with the inquiries, just like you don't bother with inquiries of big foot.



trust me, you've misread me, but you haven't been here that long so no fault i guess.( im guessing you don't have alters). im not angry at all, i just hate being diplomatic all the time. it's boring. i like saying fuck and stating things in a childish like manner. and i like decorating my thoughts with stupid examples, like shitting in town square. so i guess i am immature, but definately not angry, im probably more sensitive and feminine then most guys i know. i cried twice when i saw shrek. and i lack contemporary company quite often. and i don't think people are stupid, they just have different perspectives. although i do like to say they're stupid for immaturity's sake. but anyways, i like questions, and i like answers. they're both hobbies of mine. i found the answers to the particular set of questions you've been asking some time ago though.

your, welcome. thanks for yours

I really do wish I could be assed to read all that.

From a Christian point of veiw God will forgive all those that seek forgiveness. That is the point of baptism, that we can wash away past mistakes as easily as we can wash our body.

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I'm not afraid. if there's anything I'm scared of, it's the possiblilities. not actually what happens. because, let's face it, none of us will ever know until we die. but until then, I have my questions. and if that supplies me with my oh-so-human comfort, oh well. I'm human. nothing I can do about that, although sometimes I wish there was.

I'm not turning to Christians for answers. I'm turning to ANYONE who has an INTELLIGENT response for answers. and that have the time to answer me in full. just like Samichking has (a Christian) and just like you have (an agnostic). I'm listening to any response that satisfactorily answers my questions. that's all.

"I would have answered your question from a theological stand point, but that didn't seem to be what you were looking for."
ANY standpoint is good. really. I'm open to everyone's answers. if I'm anything, it's available to listen. I appreciate everyone's answers equally except if they're being a dumbass. really, anything. if you want to reply to my question now the way you wanted to, feel free. I'd love to hear.

lol. I wish you could talk to my friends. a "doubting Christian." they would laugh their asses of for ten years and that's no exaggeration. no way. as before, I'm in NO WAY a Christian. that would give Christians a bad name. trust me on this one. I know most of myself. this is one thing I'm sure of.

maybe I sounded like a Christian because I didn't make myself clear. for that I'm sorry. everything I say about God as if He exists is under Christian assumption that he does, for sake of arguement. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. entirely my fault.

I don't like people. I have an even mix of friends when it comes to religion. not exactly what you meant, I think. I know the basic ideas of what God is all about, or apparently. the expectations, etc. I'm not afraid of Him. I'm not afraid of going to Hell. is this what you meant? I might need further clarification on the "socialization" point.

maybe you're immature. definitely not dumb. yeah, being diplomatic all the time gets tiring. I understand better now. you remind me of me a little while ago. I was so angry...at everything. God, the world, my life...and how you presented yourself was how I did. funny immaturity, cursing, and stuff like that. I'm sorry I misread you. I hope you're not misreading me. any questions, I'd be happy to answer.

questions and answers are hobbies of mine also. both seeking and giving.

thanks again. this is turning out to be an interesting discussion.

Me, I believe all religions have a part of the truth in them. I do believe that the World, at least for the most part, recycles- that people are reborn, at least for the vast majority of people. I believe in spirituality, and magic. I believe in science. I also think people confuse science and physics too easily. Anything you can establish through trial, error, and observation, is science. Something can defy physics and still be scientific. I've seen some incredible coincidences in my life but never anything that directly contradicted or warped physics, but I've known many people I respect and admire that have, and I've never had a reason to distrust what they say. As for sins. I don't think that, for the sinner, the action of the sin matters. Two people that would both kill someone else for twenty bucks are both equally guilty, even if one does it and the other doesn't have the oppurtunity. I do believe that if someone clears the sin from their spirit they're no longer guilty of it. If that murder later changes, rejects money and material gain and strive to do right, then they're not a murderer. But that's my opinion. I do believe a God exists, but I don't think the Bible is the one and only source for information about it that's always correct.

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wow. I never thought about it that way. people being reborn is reincarnation, correct? do you believe fully in that?

I'm not sure if I believe in spirituality. I don't know if people have souls. I dunno about magic either. how do you know if you believe in magic or not? I believe in science and physics. I also believe that some things can defy physics and we have no explanation for them. some turn to God. fine by me. what I like to say to people is:
Me: "You know how things have one in a million chances of happening?"
Person: "Yeah?"
Me: "Well, it has to happen sometime."
I dunno, maybe not TOO accurate, but true.

I think if you commit a sin, you commit a sin. forgiveness is great, but you still did it. it still happened. you can't erase or replace that. to me. my opinion. I don't know - not if it's something big. like my rapist thing. if some guy went around raping people his whole life, how could he be okay later? I guess spiritually okay is what I mean. that doesn't seem right to me. or fair.

very cool. you opened up my eyes to other options...much appreciated. thanks.

ok this is strictly my opinion....
god lived on a crutch butfucked moses and sodomized with noah and his animals. i can believe that somebody and so many people have made a franchize of of a false idol. its like saying if u worship the next soda can you open you will go to a paradise. its bullshit. I HATE organized religion. DO what makes YOU happy . lard cheesy crust

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I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. but I'm gonna argue like one for a second. I like the confusedness. if you ask me why I'm giving you this response when I'm not a Christian, I'm just gonna say I like to argue. I like the chaos. so sue me.

you first sentence was just dumb. your second sentence has no proof with it to back it up. care to change that? please reply with HOW God is a false idol. does a soda can have years of worhip and servitude behind it? does it have a written account of its history to go with it (I don't know if the Bible is true or not - don't attack me on this. I see it as a historical document, that's all, so far)? no. and beliving in God does NOT mean you go to paradise. like, at all. sucky Christians go to Hell. last time I checked Hell doesn't equal paradise. unless you're a sadistic pyromaniac...but I'm getting off-track. I happen to think most organized religion is corrupt also. people as a whole are stupid. most things are horribly corrupted. religion is one of those. but, I reluctantly admit, it has its good parts too.

your repsonse needs some back-up. you have intelligence, you just need to back it up with information, theories, or some facts. otherwise it's useless.

I leave you with this: what if worshipping God MAKES you happy? then you should do it, right? right. even if it is nder a false impression as you say.
"If it makes you feel good, do it." ever seen Demon Knight (Tales From the Crypt)? you remind me of Roach.

later. a response would be cool, but not necessary.

ok well first off i thank you for not attacking me. second i am gonna do teh best i can from memory about what u siad cuz im lazy i dont feel like scrolling. no a soda can has so religious worship behind itthat i know of but as for a fact i can say many poepl do