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Serious Discussion Discuss the evolution debate in the Discussions forums; evolution is completely random, the mutations are random, the events are random. The outcomes of interactions are to some degree predicatable the events that give rise to those interactions are ...

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  (#61) Old
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12-08-06

evolution is completely random, the mutations are random, the events are random. The outcomes of interactions are to some degree predicatable the events that give rise to those interactions are not. How did the mouse and the cat get into the room in the first place, why that mouse, why that cat, why that room, was it raining?

A perfect species does not exist (although some may say the roach because it hasnt changed significantly for a very very long time) the only species that do exist however are those that are currently capable of surviving.

the immediate death caused by a volcanic eruption, massive metorite hit ect is unnatural selection the change is to rapid, for the lucky suvivors of such a sorry event the selection process begins as now the underlying enviroment has changed.

Higher intellect capabalities are a selected for trait, there have probably been countless other species on the same path as man but for some unkown reason they were unlucky and became extinect before they realized there potential.

The development of language isnt nearly as important as the mutation that allowed us make sounds.

Other species were communcating with gestures and body language.

Apos luck does not even begin to grasp the maganatude of our existence


Hope
  
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12-08-06

It all comes down to cause and effect. The word "random" indicates that things are being done without reason or pattern. If I choose a name out of a hat, that name is being chosen at random, because there is pretty much equal chance that I would pick any name out of the hat, and my choice is simple luck. When things happen in nature, when ANYTHING happens in nature, it is never without a cause, it is never without a reason and usually it is all a part of an over arcing pattern. Lets look at a purely ficticious example.

Certain species of insect dies out forever. This is caused because the insects only source of food has also died out. This means the insects extinction is not random, it was caused by the loss of its food source. We can delve deeper and see that the reason the food source died out is because the temperature in the region has been slowly decreasing and finally it got too cold for the plant to live. Once again, the plants death isnt a random occorunce, it happened with a clear and reasonable cause. We can later find that the temperature is dropping because of an oncoming ice age and so on and so on. Everything in nature has a CAUSE. And therefore, simply isn't random by any definition of the word.

Why do some species survive while others die out? Because some species adapt while others do not. Some species have the ability to adapt, while it just isn't genetically possible for the others. This isn't random, this is the unimaginably complex and surprisingly balanced cycle of nature.

Many people believe that this cycle itself is proof of intelligent design, that something so intricate and complex simply HAS to be created by an intelligent mind. I believe quite the opposite. I believe that if the world really were random and disorderly, then it would have to be held together by a greater force, because that would be the only explanation. In our world, the real world, the intricate cycle IS the explanation. It doesnt have to be designed by anything, because the cycle is what defines life itself. Without it, there would be nothing, because nothing could exist.



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12-08-06

Not much on these last few posts i'll disagree with, a lot of it is different ways of understanding the same basic thing, only slight definitional changes.

The randomness to it is the mutations themselves which are aka when they're advantagouse 'adaptions' over time.

The part of things dont change without a reasons also true. The individual organisms themselves do not change though, they do not adapt. The species and frequency of certain alleles change and that is through natural selection which is through the current environment. The environmental changes i'll agree may not be random, but the genetic mutations that are one of the fundamental things that drive species seperate over time is actually completely random.


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12-08-06

hypothetically, if one did know the position, configuration, and all other applicable information about everything in the universe, nothing would be random, hence, as i've stated, 'random' means we just can't explain it (yet). solar eclipses used to be random. etc. things appear random to us but nothing is really 'random to god'. if that makes any sense. of course i don't believe in god and do adhere to subjectivism and in fact i believe most everything is random to some degree. anyway... there is some randomness involved in everything, but it doesn't mean our framework of theories is violated if our experience strays a little outside.


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12-08-06

So because we cant explain something we say it is a result of chaos until proven otherwise? Bullshit.


  
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12-08-06

yes, what we can't explain we call random. everything can be exlained if we have enough information. "god does not play dice with the universe"

oh and let's not start calling what we say bullshit, or we're no better than turak.


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12-08-06

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefr0g View Post
It all comes down to cause and effect. The word "random" indicates that things are being done without reason or pattern. If I choose a name out of a hat, that name is being chosen at random, because there is pretty much equal chance that I would pick any name out of the hat, and my choice is simple luck. When things happen in nature, when ANYTHING happens in nature, it is never without a cause, it is never without a reason and usually it is all a part of an over arcing pattern. Lets look at a purely ficticious example.

.
actually its not random the names didnt change they were there you had to pick one of an existing set of names. This equates directly to your example the extinction of a species is not relative to evolution which is why you can see a pattern. in other words changes in the enviroment caused the eniroment to select from an existing set of traits those with out died. what happens over time is random changes in the genetic code plus competive/enviromental pressures cause the rise of a NEW species, which is why Darwin called his book on the orgin of a species, and which is what evolution is all about the development, birth if you will of a new species.

as this is the religion side: I believe that evolution validates a divine presence, it gives "him" a reason to be watching, a purpose, if not for randomness something beyond such a beings control then that being has no purpose, there is of course nothing more random them evolution


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