I was just reading the posts and thought that these links might be useful to clear up some misunderstandings:

http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Resea..._jesus_god.htm

http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Resea...m_the_dead.htm

Also, I looked up in "When Critics Ask," by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, some questions people ask concerning the Trinity, and the deity of Jesus, and I found these answers, which I hope the people on this forum may find helpful:

Concerning John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Is Jesus God or just a god?
PROBLEM: Christians believe Jesus is God and often appeal to this passage to prove it. However, Jehovah's Witnesses translate this verse "and the Word (Christ) was a god" because there is no definite article ("the") in the Greek of this verse.
SOLUTION: In Greek, when the definite article is used, it often stresses the individual, and, when it is not present, it refers to the nature of the one denoted. Thus, the verse can be rendered, "and the Word was of the nature of God." The full deity of Christ is supported not only by general usage of the same construction, but by other references in John to Jesus being God (cf. 8:58; 10:30; 20:28) and the rest of the NT (cf. Colossians 1:15-16; 2:9; Titus 2:1.
Furthermore, some NT texts use the definite article and speak of Christ as "the God". So it does not matter whether John did or did not use the definite article here -the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God, not just a god (cf. Hebrews 1:8).
That Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) is clear from the fact that the NT attributes to Jesus chracteristics which in the OT apply only only to God (cf. John 19:37 and Zechariah 12:10).

Concerning John 1:18 "...The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
Was Jesus alone the Son of God?
PROBLEM: Jesus is called "the only begotten Son" in this verse. Yet only a few verses earlier John informs us that we can by faith "become children of God" (1:12). If then we are sons of God, how can Jesus be the only Son of God?
SOLUTION: There is a gigantic difference between the senses in which Jesus is the "Son of God" and we are "sons of God." First, He is the unique Son of God; I am only a son of God. He is the Son of God with a capital "S"; human beings can become sons of God with a small "s." Jesus was the Son of God by eternal right of inheritance (Colossians 1:15); we are only the sons of God by adoption (Romans 8:15). He is the Son of God because He is God by His very nature (John 1:1), whereas we are only made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) and remade in "the image of Him" by redemption (Colossians 3:10). Jesus is of God by His very nature; we are only from God. He is divine in nature, but we only participate in it by salvation (2 Peter 1:4). And we can participate only in God's moral attributes (like holiness and love), not in His non-moral attributes (like infinity and eternality). To summarize the differences:
JESUS AS THE SON OF GOD:
Natural Son
No beginning
Creator
God by Nature
HUMANS AS SONS OF GOD:
Adopted sons
Beginning
Creature
Not God by nature

Concerning John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
Was Christ one with the Father?
PROBLEM: Jesus said here, "I and My Father are one." But on other occasions He distinguished Himself from the Father, saying "I came forth from the Father and...I leave the world and go to the Father" (John 16:28). Further, He prayed to the Father as one person to another (John 17), and even said "the Father is greater than I."
SOLUTION: Jesus was one with the Father in nature, but distinct from Him in person. The triune Godhead has one essence, but three distinct persons (see comments on John 14:28). So, Jesus was both the same in substance, and yet was a different individual from the Father.

Concerning John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, "I said, "You are gods"'?"
Did Jesus advocate that man could become God?
PROBLEM: Jesus answered a group of Jews and said, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?" Does this mean that humans can become God as pantheistic religions and New Age advocates claim?
SOLUTION: The context of this passage reveals that Christ had just pronounced Himself one with the Father saying, "I and My Father are one" (10:30). The Jews wanted to stone Him because they thought Christ was blaspheming since He was making Himself out to be equal with God (vv. 31-3.
Jesus responded by quoting Psalm 82:6 which says, "I said, you are gods." This psalm addresses judges who are judging unjustly. The title of "gods" is not addressed to everyone, but only to these judges about whom Jesus said are those to "whom the word of God came" (v. 35). Jesus was showing that if the OT Scriptures could give some divine status to divinely appointed judges, why should they find it so incredible that He should call Himself the Son of God? Thus, Jesus was giving a defense for His own deity, not for the deification of man.

Concerning John 14:28 "...for My Father is greater than I."
Did Jesus think of Himself as less than God?
PROBLEM: Christianity confesses Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Yet Jesus said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." How can the Father be greater if Jesus is equal to God?
SOLUTION: The Father is greater than the Son by office, but not by nature, since both are God (see John 1:1; 8:58; 10:30). Just as an earthly father is equally human with, but holds a higher office than, his son, even so the Father and the Son in the Trinity are equal in essence, but different in function. In like manner, we speak of the president of our country as being a greater man, not by virtue of his character, but by virtue of his position. Therefor, Jesus cannot ever be said to say that He considered Himself anything less than God by nature. The following summary helps to crystalize the differences:
JESUS IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER:
In essence
In nature
In character
THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN JESUS:
In function
In office
In position

Concerning Matthew 8:20 "...the Son of Man..."
(cf. Matthew 20:18; 24:30; etc.)
If Jesus was the Son of God, why did He call Himself the Son of Man?
PROBLEM: Jesus referred to Himself most often as the Son of Man. This seems to point to His humanity more than His deity. If He really was the Messiah, the Son of God, why did He use the self-description, "Son of Man?"
SOLUTION: First of all, even if the phrase, "Son of Man" is a reference to Jesus' humanity, it is not a denial of His deity. By becoming man, Jesus did not cease being God. The Incarnation of Christ did not involve the subtraction of deity, but the addition of humanity. Jesus clearly claimed to be God on many occasions (Matthew 16:16-17; John 8:58; 10:30). But, in addition to being divine, He was also human. He had two natures cojoined in one person.
Furthermore, Jesus was not denying His deity by referring to Himself as the Son of Man. The term, "Son of Man" is used to describe Christ's deity as well. The Bible says that only God can forgive sins (Isaiah 43:25, Mark 2:7). But, as the "Son of Man," Jesus had the power to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). Likewise, Christ will return to earth as the "Son of Man" in clouds of glory to reign on earth (Matthew 26:63-64). In this passage, Jesus is citing Daniel 7:13 where the Messiah is described as the "Ancient of Days," a phrase used to indicate His deity (cf. Daniel 7:9).
Further, when Jesus was asked by the high priest whether He was the "Son of God" (Matthew 26:6, He responded affirmatively, declaring that He was the "Son of Man" who would come in power and great glory (v. 64). This indicated that Jesus Himself used the phrase "Son of Man" to indicate His deity as the Son of God.
Finally, the phrase "Son of Man" emphasizes who Jesus is in relation to His Incarnation and His work of salvation. In the OT (see Leviticus 25:25-26, 48-49; Ruth 2:20), the kinsman redeemer was a close relative of someone who was in need of redemption. So Jesus, as our Kinsman Redeemer, was identifying Himself with humankind as its Savior and Redeemer. Those who knew the OT truth about the Messiah being the Son of Man understood Jesus' implicit claims to deity. Those who did not, would not so recognize this. Jesus often said things in this way so as to test His audience and separate believers from unbelievers (cf. Matthew 13:10-17).

There are several other Q&As I could include in this post, but I think I've given enough for people to understand the point I was trying to make. This really ended up longer than I planned, but nevermind.

Thanks for reading however much of my post you read,

Chris

Very interesting.. I was searching the web and I got to some website and it had the following verses quoted. just a reminder.. i'm not attacking anyones beliefs... just trying to go through all possibilities.

"Thou shalt have no other Gods but Me."

Matthew 19:17. "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Jesus here rejects the implication that he is God. His argument is that absolute goodness belongs only to God. In rejecting this attribute in the absolute sense, he rejects deity.

Mark 12:29. "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"

and I know a few more.. ok ok I like brought this to some friends and they told me that that is fake.. many Christians actually consider the Pauline epistles of more normative authority than the Gospels themselves.. so this is what I found..

1 Corinthians 8:6. "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things."

Galatians 3:20. "God is one."

Ephesians 4:4-6. "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

1 Timothy 2:5, "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

now this stuff was from the New testament.. the old testament is full of 'God is one' stuff.. and nothing about if I dont call Jesus my savior then I'll Burn foreva!!

That's some of the weakest, most circular, stretched logic ever.

Once again heaven bound..why did Jesus say "the father is greater than i"? once again..how can you be greater than yourself?

Dark Messiah, you did not read what Heavenbound posted. At best you skimmed over it. You said, "That's some of the weakest, most circular, stretched logic ever."
By my estimation you must be applying your own quote to yourself. You have neither the intelligence nor the decency to back up this rude comment. Please show all involved how you would like to back up and prove such a broad sweeping statement. I read the entire post and it made alot of sense to me. I am not saying I agree with everything in the post.
You are rude.
You are selfish
You need to think before you post.
Yet you think very little considering how many times you post each day.
Now go back and show some courage and prove to us why you think the post was "some of the weakest, most circular, stretched logic ever."
If you do this, then you might earn some respect. Until then, you are just a child yearning for others to hear his words.

Like the great one (Dark Messiah) said, no.

Oh trust me unstained...dark messiah will prove to you....

Ok, firstly, in response to gArGOyLe^^'s post: I had this quote typed out from last time, but I removed it because it was too much for the one post, but because you used it as one of the verses you quoted:

Concerning Matthew 19:16-30 (not quoted here to save space)
(cf. Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-30)
If Jesus was God, why did He seem to rebuke the rich young ruler for calling Him good?
PROBLEM: The rich young ruler called Jesus "Good Teacher; and Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." Yet on other occasions Jesus not only claimed to be God (Mark 2:8-10; John 8:58; 10:30), but He accepted the claim of others that He was God (John 20:28-29). Why did Jesus appear to deny that He was God to the young ruler?
SOLUTION: Jesus did not deny He was God to the young ruler. He simply asked him to examine the implications of what he was saying. In effect, Jesus was saying to him, "Do you realize what you are saying when you call Me Good? Are you saying that I am God?"
The young man did not realize the implications of what he was saying. Thus Jesus was forcing him to a very uncomfortable dilemma. Either Jesus was good and God, or else He was bad and man. Those are the real alternatives with regard to Christ. For no man would claim to be God when he was not. The liberal Christ, who was only a good moral teacher, but not God, is a figment of human imagination.

I didn't type this one out before, but I will now, because it explains the clearest definition of the Trinity in Scripture, although Scripture itself does not use the word "Trinity":

Concerning Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen"
How can three persons be God when there is only one God?
PROBLEM: Matthew speaks of the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" all being part of one "name". But these are three distinct persons. How can there be three persons in the Godhead when there is only "one God" (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:6)?
SOLUTION: God is one in essence, but three in Persons. God has one nature, but three centers of consciousness. That is, there is only one What in God, but there are three Whos. There is one It, but three I's. This is a mystery, but not a contradiction. It would be contradictory to say God was only one person, but also was three persons. Or that God is only one nature, but that He also had three natures. But to declare, as orthodox Christians do, that God is one essence, eternally revealed in three distinct persons is not a contradiction.

In my own response to your comments on Mark 12:29, and to your comment that the OT is full of "God is one" stuff: Yes, God is one, that's why Jesus said "I and My Father are one". The Trinity is one Godhead, but three Persons. (There are verses in the OT, too, starting to reveal God's triune nature, such as Psalm 2:7 "You are My Beloved Son, Today I have begotten Thee"... that one just came to mind, there's lots of others, such as Isaiah 9:6). I know that I use links way too much, but it's because I'm really busy at the moment, getting ready to move house amongst other things, but if people are really looking for answers from a thorough explanation, I recommend the following links:

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/trinity.htm

http://cyber-church.com/thinkabout/trinity.htm
(this one has referrences to foreshadows of the Trinity being revealed in the OT, too)

About what someone else said, about how can the Father be equal to the Son, but the Father is greater than the Son... I don't know how accurate this is, but here goes: The Son is just like the Father in every intrinsic way, but the Son served a position of subjection and obedience to the Father, though also having the closeness of ideal sonship to the Father. It was the Father who laid upon the Son the sin of the world, when the Son was nailed to the cross, and the Son willfully took it.

I am willing to openly admit I don't have all the answers (I've only know God for one year, before that my life was all Reiki (I think some people in this forum know what Reiki means), martial arts, and gym, so I don't know all that much. Samichking has known God for far longer than me, and He's probably more able to answer stuff like this. But if I can help anyone, I will certainly try), but where I dont know, I will try to find out.

I had more to write, but it's getting late here, and I don't write very well when I'm tired. I know I've left lots out, but you can find the answers in the documents in the links, if you would like to read them.

My apologies if I didnt make much sense in this post... need sleep

Chris
(aka user-of-too-many-links)

You're right, that wasn't a very accurate answer to how can the father be greater than the son if they're the same person. I wonder how God was able to speak to Jesus 3 times, even witnesses heard..if they were the same person. Also in that John 1:1 It may seem to people that it makes them out to be the same person...then why wasn't Holy Spirit, wich is supposedly the third part of the trinity, not mentioned? They all have to be mentioned in the same context right...not arguing..making points.

Listen little child, I've been coming to this board for almost it's entire existence. I've reviewed these same arguments about philosophy and religion proffered by idiotic dullard such as yourself in the vain hope that you'll appear original and inspired by quoting something someone else said. In my single sentence accusing that logic of being weak and circular, I did far more work of my own than HeavenBond who simply copy-pasted from a Christian propoganda website, and I've shown far more open-mindedness in that I was attacking a single argument which I had an entire grasp on, having read it fully, rather than someone who I know little about. We're all so much more complicated than single posts will allow us to demonstrate, even the ignorant masses of which you are a part. I feel completely safe in guessing you haven't read more than three posts of mine on this entire forum, and I'm referring to all the forums now. And I hardly see how saying I post a lot is an insult. Viewing your opinion is a crime now? Or is it that we should all agree with the Bible all the time, and agree with people who agree with the Bible, and gather in a circle singing "Jesus Loves me, This I know"?

Personally, I Acolyte and sing in the choir at my church where I just finished up helping at the summer Vocation Bible School on my own time as volunteer work. So I'm not against Christianity, though I don't believe in organized religions myself. The logic was weak however, in that it was structured in the same way most "Christian" logic is (and by "Christian" logic I mean the log of people who must use Jesus every fourth word out of their mouth and Lord every seventh); they take a single passage from the Bible, isolated and out of context. Add your own interpretation of what the context is. Obscure it beneath a long explanation of why it means what you say it means. Take another isolated quote that really doens't relate. Twist it's context until it means what you think it should mean. Keep on going. Take isolated quote after isolated, quote, add the opinions of "scholars" no one knows, and more isolated quotes from famous men so that it seems like they're agreeing with you. Keep burying the crux of the matter under layer and layer of interpretation and quotes and twisted logic until you've thoroughly confused your enemy. I've seen this strategy used a million times on websites and books and magazines condemning rock 'n roll and Dungeons and Dragons and yoga and martial arts and Catholicism and Protestism and Orthodoxism and Mormonism and everything and anything under the Sun. And frankly it gets to be old. There's only one reason anyone ever feels the need to spend twelve paragraphs and three hundred lines on a single point; their entire argument is based around a lie, and they know it. This is weak logic. This is circular logic. This is what you have no grasp on in your own idiocy. I'm done with you, run along.

Un hem.. unless I am mistaken.. We should ask Sam.. The Holy spirit (and last part of the trinity) was not introduced untill after the death of christ. It filled the apostles with the courage and strength to spread the word of Jesus, which in turn was the word of god..

"If he didnt say anything about being God then who said that he was God? "

That's already been addressed.. In fact I don't think that people praise Jesus because they say he/she IS god, but instead because Jesus is part of God, and only through Jesus do we find salvation.. I also think some belive that only THROUGH Jesus do we reach God?

If you follow the teaching of Jesus (which are all good.. nothing evil taught by him) then you should get in to heaven no matter what religion you follow cuz basically all religions have this common thing.. that ur supposed to do good.

You do get into heaven through jesus cuz if you follow him u do good. If some person does good but doesnt really say that jesus is god but believes in God then why would jesus (if you believe he is god) kick you out of heaven?

yeah!! where is sam? I thought he'd be interested in this post

I read somewhere that the Holy Spirit is a person who at Jesuses time was yet to be born in to this world.. A person who was going to reinforce Gods word later on.