Death Penalty... - Page 3 - Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

Where? Where would you make those jobs? And why would we need a new government entity to crate jobs? that sounds like big government mother hen government, no thanks.

And prisons are not government entities???

Programs which would intervene or be there to intervene on behalf of abused children and adults. Which would provide counseling and assistance with those whose lives are shattered by violence in either the family or home. Which would hold accountable abusive parents and spouses.
These would be preventative measures which would be better than our punitive measures. You cannot punish what does not occur. Our American mentality is one of punishment after the fact rather than preventative maintenance.
The money that is sinkholed into prisons could be more wisely spent.

J0hnnyReb · 08-10-05

It is. War on drugs. War on crime. You ever hear those terms tossed about. Policemen die every day protecting you and me from scumbags, rapists, and murderers.

And they get paid for it. We have a war on pverty too, war on abstract ideas is not actual war. And I protect myself, The cops never once stopped anyone from fucking with me. The cops even said it isnt thier job to protect people, which is why they can never be sued for being late to a home invasion where someone is murdered.

Actually I DO NOT own a car. I ride my bike to work every single day. I have not owned a car since I was about 26. That is 11 years now. So go pay for your own roads.

No I want you to pay for my roads.

They would murder in prison. I am sure you have seen and heard about all those murders in prison. Or do you not consider those worthy enough to view as murder? You can never remove someone entirely from society unless you kill them. Elsewise they will still be a threat to prison guards, and other prisoners. Be assured that they will kill again.

If they murder in prison you must be happy, I mean its like the d eath penalty without the appeals or cost of appeals. There ya go. And noone is a threat inside a prison to the general population of the area around it. Unless they ge tout, and they usually dont.

J0hnnyReb · 08-10-05

And prisons are not government entities???

Im sorry do you have a point here anywhere? I am not the one who is suggesting that we murder all of our prison inmates and then open up new government entities to "give people jobs" thats all a little too big brother for me.

Programs which would intervene or be there to intervene on behalf of abused children and adults. Which would provide counseling and assistance with those whose lives are shattered by violence in either the family or home. Which would hold accountable abusive parents and spouses.
These would be preventative measures which would be better than our punitive measures. You cannot punish what does not occur. Our American mentality is one of punishment after the fact rather than preventative maintenance.
The money that is sinkholed into prisons could be more wisely spent.

I doubt it. Want to get rid of crime? OK I will tell you how to do it, 1st we need to get rid of your ability to own property, then we are going to have to take all the money from everyone and redistribute it. Including your computer so unplug it and pack it up someone more needy needs it. After this is done we are going to have to force enlist all of our young men into a special police force and station them on every street corner. Your right to free speech must be revoked and so must your right to bear arms because ya know you could accidently shoot someone or commit suicide and suicide is a crime. Once we have our nice totalitarian mind controlled 1984 paradise we will have no crime and all the money will be well spent. Right?

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

And they get paid for it. We have a war on pverty too, war on abstract ideas is not actual war. And I protect myself, The cops never once stopped anyone from fucking with me. The cops even said it isnt thier job to protect people, which is why they can never be sued for being late to a home invasion where someone is murdered.

Not there to protect people?? Who have you been talking to?? I deal with and talk to the police here in SLC all the time when dealing with Retail Theft and they would beg to differ.

Quote:

No I want you to pay for my roads.

Why. You drive the car not I.

Quote:

If they murder in prison you must be happy, I mean its like the d eath penalty without the appeals or cost of appeals. There ya go. And noone is a threat inside a prison to the general population of the area around it. Unless they ge tout, and they usually dont.

What about the pot smokers?? Drunk drivers? People who are in prison for making a stupid mistake?? I suppose thier deaths do not matter?? The murderers who are allowed to co-exist with them within the prisons see easy targets. You are taking me out of context if you think that the people who made stupid mistakes are even part of my argument. I am talking about murderers, rapists, and other assorted scumbags. People who commit victimless crimes should not have to be confined with them.
Sooo... the prison guards who probably live in the area are not part of the general population and therefore not threatened..... yeah.... sure.....

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

Im sorry do you have a point here anywhere? I am not the one who is suggesting that we murder all of our prison inmates and then open up new government entities to "give people jobs" thats all a little too big brother for me.

Wow!! I suggested we murder ALL of our inmates??? Where--- please quote me in context where I suggested we murder ALL of our inmates-- now quit subverting the original argument with wild assumptions.

Quote:

I doubt it. Want to get rid of crime? OK I will tell you how to do it, 1st we need to get rid of your ability to own property, then we are going to have to take all the money from everyone and redistribute it. Including your computer so unplug it and pack it up someone more needy needs it. After this is done we are going to have to force enlist all of our young men into a special police force and station them on every street corner. Your right to free speech must be revoked and so must your right to bear arms because ya know you could accidently shoot someone or commit suicide and suicide is a crime. Once we have our nice totalitarian mind controlled 1984 paradise we will have no crime and all the money will be well spent. Right?

Thats pretty drastic. Your a strange fellow if you think that what you are assuming is what I really want. Have you even read anything I have posted or just skimmed it and not liked its content because it does not agree with your outlook and so instantly dismissed it??

Crime will never be completely stopped in a capitilist society or ANY other society for that matter. BUT that does not mean we have to allow murderers and rapists free reign to do as they please. It is our responsibility to bring criminals to justice for thier crimes. And the punishment should match the crime. Eye for an eye. Heck that is a Christian concept you should love it

B'Aqu-anir · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

Gacys and Dhamers should get life without parole and no appeals if we have enough evidence that they did what they did. And they should be studied extensively.

Studying them could have some potential. Provided it were possible to derive sufficient information from studying them to get a real feel for what makes them tick, come up with a realistic way to identify others who were potentially of the same ilk, and develop methods that would stop them from committing similar crimes. All of which is a pretty tall order. Unfortunately, I don't think our current level of technology and/or understanding of the inner workings of the human mind is sufficiently developed to have any hope of any real results.

My problem with keeping them alive is their potential for murdering a fellow inmate or guard. More likely than not, it would be some poor sap who got two years for marijuana possession. I suppose solitary confinement would theoretically prevent them from killing someone else, but life locked in a room by yourself seems like it would be worse than death to me.

The simple fact is, if they are dead, they can't kill again.

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by B'Aqu-anir

Studying them could have some potential. Provided it were possible to derive sufficient information from studying them to get a real feel for what makes them tick, come up with a realistic way to identify others who were potentially of the same ilk, and develop methods that would stop them from committing similar crimes. All of which is a pretty tall order. Unfortunately, I don't think our current level of technology and/or understanding of the inner workings of the human mind is sufficiently developed to have any hope of any real results.

Studying them is a tremendous waste of time. From what has been seen murderers and rapists come from ALL classes of human life and from all backgrounds. Some of them completely sane and some absolutely looney-tunes. Studying them is another excuse for those who would feel guilt about killing them to force the system to keep the murderers alive longer.

Quote:

My problem with keeping them alive is their potential for murdering a fellow inmate or guard. More likely than not, it would be some poor sap who got two years for marijuana possession. I suppose solitary confinement would theoretically prevent them from killing someone else, but life locked in a room by yourself seems like it would be worse than death to me.

The simple fact is, if they are dead, they can't kill again.

Yes indeed. Once dead noone else will ever die by thier hands again-- problem solved. It is always the poor sap who gets it. The guy in jail for defending himself against five guys but he beat them up too badly or the guy busted for 2 lbs of pot or the guy who was trippin' balls on LSD and decided he could fly and was busted for being under the influence.

J0hnnyReb · 08-10-05

Not there to protect people?? Who have you been talking to?? I deal with and talk to the police here in SLC all the time when dealing with Retail Theft and they would beg to differ.

Good for you, now if theyr ebeing paid to protect me I can or my family can sue them if they dont right? Go ask any cop if he has to protect me, and if he doesnt can I sue him for neglect.

Why. You drive the car not I.

Because I want you too, I mean we're cutting up who gets taxed what right? And I fugre youve probably driven longer than I have so I tink you should pay the taxes.

What about the pot smokers?? Drunk drivers? People who are in prison for making a stupid mistake?? I suppose thier deaths do not matter?? The murderers who are allowed to co-exist with them within the prisons see easy targets. You are taking me out of context if you think that the people who made stupid mistakes are even part of my argument. I am talking about murderers, rapists, and other assorted scumbags. People who commit victimless crimes should not have to be confined with them.
Sooo... the prison guards who probably live in the area are not part of the general population and therefore not threatened..... yeah.... sure

The pot smokers shouldnt be there. But since you want to kill criminals to save money I guess theyre screwed. Prison guards are irrelevant considering that they go INSIDE the prison, how much of the general population will come into contect with the confined? only visitors, and guards and criminals. PERIOD. You have a wierd propensity for making stupid and pointless statements that detract from your own points FYI.

J0hnnyReb · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

Wow!! I suggested we murder ALL of our inmates??? Where--- please quote me in context where I suggested we murder ALL of our inmates-- now quit subverting the original argument with wild assumptions.

[color=red]

Thats pretty drastic. Your a strange fellow if you think that what you are assuming is what I really want. Have you even read anything I have posted or just skimmed it and not liked its content because it does not agree with your outlook and so instantly dismissed it??

Crime will never be completely stopped in a capitilist society or ANY other society for that matter. BUT that does not mean we have to allow murderers and rapists free reign to do as they please. It is our responsibility to bring criminals to justice for thier crimes. And the punishment should match the crime. Eye for an eye. Heck that is a Christian concept you should love it

Yeah you know those murderers and rapists sure do got free righn behind those bars, I bet they even get to go to the bathroom and eat lunch. THE NERVE!

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

Good for you, now if theyr ebeing paid to protect me I can or my family can sue them if they dont right? Go ask any cop if he has to protect me, and if he doesnt can I sue him for neglect.

It would be insane to "SUE" them for neglect. They do the best they can with the resources at hand. So, no, you cannot sue for neglect.

Quote:

Because I want you too, I mean we're cutting up who gets taxed what right? And I fugre youve probably driven longer than I have so I tink you should pay the taxes.

You once again have taken me out of context. I suggested that we decide what we do with "OUR" tax money. You would not decide what I do nor I you. You are starting to develop a bad habit of out of context answers.

Quote:

The pot smokers shouldnt be there. But since you want to kill criminals to save money I guess theyre screwed. Prison guards are irrelevant considering that they go INSIDE the prison, how much of the general population will come into contect with the confined? only visitors, and guards and criminals. PERIOD. You have a wierd propensity for making stupid and pointless statements that detract from your own points FYI.

Now are we going to start in on "your stupid" statements which detract from the main topic and only instigate hostility??

I never said I wanted to kill criminals. ONCE AGAIN--- please quote where I said that from. Murderers and rapists yes. People who commit victimless crimes should not be prosecuted and others should not have to be contained with filth.
So prison guards are irrelevent eh?? Thier deaths at the hands of murderers who should have been killed do not count?? Nifty logic that.

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

Yeah you know those murderers and rapists sure do got free righn behind those bars, I bet they even get to go to the bathroom and eat lunch. THE NERVE!

And now sarcasm.

Dyshade · 08-10-05

I see now that you do not want to debate nor discuss you want a cat-fight. As such I will limit my replies in this thread to those who wish to discuss the main points at hand and not get distracted by childish antics.

We almost had a good conversation going there though.

B'Aqu-anir · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

Studying them is a tremendous waste of time. From what has been seen murderers and rapists come from ALL classes of human life and from all backgrounds. Some of them completely sane and some absolutely looney-tunes. Studying them is another excuse for those who would feel guilt about killing them to force the system to keep the murderers alive longer.

I'm not so sure studying violent criminals is a complete waste of time. If (and this is a big if) studying this type of human being were to produce information that could be used effectively to reduce or eliminate much of the violent crimes we see committed by these people, then the time would be well spent studying them. Unfortunately, I don't believe man's knowledge and understanding of the human psyche is sufficiently developed to be capable of deriving any useful information from the likes of Bundy et al. Even if it were, this type of criminal shouldn't be kept around indefinately. The longer they remain amongst the living, the greater the risk they will do someone in.

Dyshade · 08-10-05

A note--

In 2003, 65 persons in 11 States and the Federal system were executed -- 24 in Texas; 14 in Oklahoma, 7 in North Carolina; 3 each in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and Ohio; 2 each in Indiana, Missouri, and Virginia; and 1 each in Arkansas and the Federal system.
Of persons executed in 2003:
-- 41 were white
-- 20 were black
-- 3 were Hispanic (all white)
-- 1 American Indian
Of those executed in 2003:
-- 65 were men
Lethal injection accounted for 64 of the executions; 1 was carried out by electrocution.
Thirty-eight States and the Federal government in 2003 had capital statutes.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

When you lump violent felons into prisons with mediocre criminals trouble is only a matter of time coming. We need to revamp our prison systems and release ALL drug offenders and look for options for them such as treatment for addiciton and education. Sticking them in jail with violent offenders only assures either thier murder or corruption.

Dyshade · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by B'Aqu-anir

I'm not so sure studying violent criminals is a complete waste of time. If (and this is a big if) studying this type of human being were to produce information that could be used effectively to reduce or eliminate much of the violent crimes we see committed by these people, then the time would be well spent studying them. Unfortunately, I don't believe man's knowledge and understanding of the human psyche is sufficiently developed to be capable of deriving any useful information from the likes of Bundy et al. Even if it were, this type of criminal shouldn't be kept around indefinately. The longer they remain amongst the living, the greater the risk they will do someone in.

The problem is that they have done some serious study into profiling. Most of the serious mass-killers whether they be mass-murderers or serial killers often do not fit into any one mold.
Some kill for kicks and others have insane reasons which do not equate to any known sane logic. Sometimes though we have passion killings. Those are the only types of murder I think we ought to study. See if we can somehow prevent them from occuring.

Lenina · 08-10-05

Quote:

Originally Posted by J0hnnyReb

I agree with Fr0g I grew up in a really really rough area and I have seen violence and death like it was everyday stuff and kiling people through the state only makes me feel like we are wasting our time. The death Penalty DOES NOT DETER CRIME. Watch the documentary "Aileen" Its about Aileen Wournos that hitch hiking gooker/murder they picked up in Florida, the shit that pushed her into becomming what she became was fucked up. Many of these people are just people who've been fucked over since they were kids.

In Aileens case for example she had been beaten and raped almost all the time by her grandfather after her mother abandoned her family and her father went to jail and was killed. Is it no wonder she started killing males?

In either case I saw we ban the death penalty outright, and re-modify our prisons, strip them down of thier general populations, no more gen pop, only solitary confinement for everybody. Where do we get the extra space? we get rid ofthe gym yards and the tv courts and all that shit. Get rid of the TVs, the Computer access, the visits from loved ones, the windows. the music. Everything get rid of it all. Let them order a new book every month thats it, to keep them from going insane. While we are at it the only time they should leave thier cells is when they are arriving at forced labor camps. Where they will manufacture for free or for cents an hour car parts, or retread tires or whatever. This will earn them the right to keep thier life.

for once, we are in agreement... I honestly didn't think that would happen.... Heh