Sixxx, maybe you should move to China....

Why do we not believe in cruel and unusual punishment? Why should the death penalty be removed?

I'm going to try and adress the basic points here briefly.

1) Because we have nothing to gain. Torture is an extremely, extremely unreliable method of gaining information; you see the reason behind this if you've ever been present when a child was being beaten by their parent as a punishment, or whether you were that child- here I include "moderate" forms of corporal punishment. If you hit someone, they will say whatever they think is most likely to get you to stop. A child who promises never to be bad again is not going to actually be a saint for the rest of their life; if anything, most studies about physical punishment show the opposite. I was reading a very eloquent, very old book on crime and punishment that adressed another basic flaw with extreme punishments; the belief in one's own immortality. The extremity of the punishment is less relevant because most criminals, whether justifiably or not, think they won't be caught. It's a natural arrogance most people have. Therefore, a punishment that can be administered reliably to offenders is a better deterrent than a haphazardly applied, yet extreme punishment. So far from preventing crime, the death penalty is more or less glorified in a lot of mainstream culture. There aren't a ton of movies, music videos, comic books or record labels focusing on someone who got Life in Prison. Furthermore, a slain criminal, besides the appeal process for the death penalty actually costing the taxpayer more than simply holding them for life, cannot return the debt to through society through labor.

2) Because the corruption of a government is directly proportionate to it's power. It boggles the mind that conservatives who don't want the government to have the power to tax over a certain percentage or tax certain products are perfectly alright with giving the government the power to take away life. Invariably, innocent are killed, and if they're found to be innocent ten or fifteen years later it's too late to be of any help. Invariably, over time, the power over life and death will be actively abused; there's a natural progression from putting treasonist terrorists to death to putting treasonous dissidents, then simply dissidents and anti-establishment figures of all kinds.

3) It turns us into monsters. I realized that some of you have no idea what you look like when you gleefully talk about wanting to watch another human being be killed, and then defend yourself by saying that he or she "deserves" it. Whether or not they do is besides the point. It lessens the humanity in a being to take joy in the suffering of another. Some anger and hate are natural in humans, and I don't think they should be completely repressed; but at the point at which you're actively delighting in the torture and murder of others, we're way too far down the other extreme. If we were talking about someone who had slain your loved ones specifically, it would be one thing; but cut through the bullshit. When you read about some stranger being murdered in the newspaper, you don't set down the newspaper and cry. You don't call their relatives and console them. You don't go to the funeral and lay roses on the grave. You make no pretense of mourning the death, so pretending to some sort of righteous anger in an effort to present your basest desires as noble is meaningless. When we grow up with murder and abuse and torture as condoned activities, we become jaded to the actual suffering of others and lose all empathy. Children learn by example; if you teach them by hitting them, they're much more likely to consider violence an acceptable means of solving problems. If you show them that it's alright to kill and torture those who wrong you, they practice those ideals.

Well said DM.
I'd just like to say first up that anything I say that sounds like I'm leaning on the side of punishing anyone with violence of death is purely for debates sake. I don't believe in it whatsoever.
Torture should be outlawed in every country. Any country that breaches this should be severely punished somehow....but how?

Fuck your moral comparison bullshit. If we torture a terrorist for info, thats good. It gets info, good or bad info is still info. It turns us into monsters? no pretending that monsters are people and letting them hurt others is what turns us into monsters.

Should we start with the motherfuckers chopping off peoples heads in the turd world middle east?

for your first point: torture is not an effective interrogation method, i agree. personally, i say trick them into giving us the information and then hold them until it's verified. then either release or torture to death, as necessary.

for your second: impressive hypothesis, though completely unjustifiable. economics cannot be compared to human life, not even by my cynical viewpoint. economics are much, much more apparently important.

for your third: haha, can't you be liberal and not have such stereotypical arguments? jesus christ. i'm apathetic towards politics in general, so i can make fun of either party when they annoy me - often. when you say it lessens the humanity of a human to enjoy another's death, that's so unjustified and unjustifiable that it's laughable. as human beings, everything we do is human. we cannot violate nature because we partake in it. we are nature, we are humanity, and when we do anything we are simply making known an aspect of our nature. whether we love or hate it, are glorified or terrified of it is another story. but it is in our nature nonetheless, in my and your nature, whether you admit it or not.

i don't give a shit when other people are killed, as you've said, but it's the principle of the thing that merits their punishment. those who stray from society should be removed from society. would you feel better stranding violent criminals on a desert island in the middle of the pacific? 90% of the costs would be reduced - in fact, profit could be made in the trip (take passengers along for a cruise, lol) drop the sickos off, let them live with, kill, eat, and screw each other. let it be hell on earth - or whatever they choose to make of it. give them their own society. and forget them. would that be any more humane than dispatching them to the next world?

Not much crime in China at all. Which is funny because there are also hardly any police or police cruisers cruising. Although we did see 1 who was on traffic watch. People just obey the law over there. I can see why, thier government doesnt coddle and cuddle criminals.

People obey laws because they live in fear of the punishments - their systms work. I don't agree with it, but it works. I was scared to travel to China this year - was told about gangs, muggings etc. But didn't see any of that at all. I guess Beijing is different to the rest of China since they are cleaning up the city for the Olympics.

You agree with torturing "terrorists". Do you agree with other countries torturing any tourist they think could be a spy? Or is it only ok for certain countries to do this and not others.

If you allow torture, you allow it for everyone that could be a suspect (who gets to choose who is suspect???) and for any country that choses to use torture.

If you come to my country, are you saying that you would be happy to be tortured because you trust that if I think you are a terrorist or a spy, then I must have a really good reason for thinking this?

People get it wrong all the time. Torture is monstrous. I'm glad I'm not being tortured just because of the colour of my skin, my country of birth, etc etc etc blah blah blah.

i wonder if you ignore my post because you dislike my ideas, you dislike me, you dislike your ideas in light of mine, or you dislike yourself in light of me. i feel ignored. i hate myself, thank's a lot, masochist.

Sorry apostate, billy got me all fired up so that your long post got forgotten. I don't dislike you, I don't know you. Besides, you seemed to responding to someone else.

That's already been done before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_colony
I don't agree with it because there is not even an attempt of rehab. Unless you only mean the people that cannot be rehabilitated to fit into society. Why the Pacific by the way? Is that so they can all be my neighbours? I'm on a island in the Pacific...

i was actually referring to your island. sorry for the confusion.

seriously, though, surely you'd be more in favor of the penal colony than the death penalty? and i'm not suggesting we stay there and make them work, we just strand them. we don't stay. make it remote enough, and they will not escape. although it's not really what either extreme (rehab vs death penalty) wants, it seems a fair compromise. and i'm not suggesting every ass who gets into a bar fight go, either. just the sick, deranged, violent criminals who have offended, with intent, and intend to do so again. we've got enough moderately sane people in society to just get rid of the rest. let's say the population is growing at a rate of 5% per year. If even 10% of people born turn out to be violent criminals, then the number of criminals we punish with permanent banishment from society is 5% x 10% = 0.5%, and since we can consider them 'dead', the rate drops to 4.5% population growth. not bad.... the math there is a little sketchy, but it makes the point.

I must agree of course this is more humane, but they'll be able to escape. New Zealand was uninhabited some form of people sailed from asia and settled here. It's a long way, but it's totally doable.

Is there a movie on this? There must be....it sounds like a good one...

well, here i beg to differ. i think there are some places they could not escape from... just don't give them any natural resources. like, napalm a little island, make sure there's a decent source of fresh drinking water, give them a pole or two for fishing and maybe a pack of matches and maybe even air drop them some food and clothes from time to time. if they want shelter, they can tunnel underground. that would be sweet. i think you have a point about them escaping, but what i'm saying is that it could be denied them. you can't make a raft without wood...

Which is funny because I spent a week in BeiJing last summer and they were still making ready for the games too. The only thing I was told to worry about were thieves. not muggings, thats probably what they meant when they told you. The purse grabbers. I didnt see a single one though or even hearr about one and I wasnt afraid at all.

I spent a Month in Chengdu as well and it was even better there I didnt see but 1 cop the whole time. I saw more guards at the American Embacy than anywhere else.

It doesnt matter if I agree with it, they fucking already do it. Or is cutting peoples heads off not covered in Geneva? And unlike the monsters we need the info from we wouldjnt be torturing them because of thier ethnicity throw that race baiting liberal hippy bullshit out of your head right now.