Is there really any point to saying crap like this? The ONLY person in the entire poetry forum who gives thorough, thought-out analyses is sixxx(sic)six, and I've decided that I'm going to be his sidekick, since I'm being driven to madness here.

First of all, the most important thing I learned in college is that yes, there IS such a thing as a bad poem in someone's eyes. A poem can be called "bad" without a person feeling a sense of guilt, and without a poet feeling terrible about himself. My professor tore me a new asshole everytime I did something that was gross, and 99% of the time, I agreed. I can't tell you how many times on this forum I've seen someone call a poem bad or lacking, and have someone else run up and say "there's no such thing as a bad poem. that's just your opinion! blah blah blah fucking blah."

Guess what, Sherlock? Of COURSE it's just a fucking opinion. Unless it's science, everything is an opinion... and some might even argue that some sciences are opinion-based. However, does that mean that a poet should throw all negative criticism into the crapper? Nope. In fact, negative criticism should be dissected more meticulously than positive criticism. If someone just says "wheee, I like it! You write good stuff LOL!" what does that do for the poet? Absolutely nothing. You can give a positive critique, for sure, but if you don't say exactly why you liked it, you aren't serving any purpose. With negative criticism, the poet is being given something to work with. He doesn't have to agree with all negative criticism, and can throw away a lot of it if he wants, but he now has an idea of what people want from his work.

I got all enraged when I read some thread where sixxx critiqued a poem, and Ditto jumped on his back, saying she thoroughly disagreed with certain points, and that he shouldn't be telling her how to write. Two points should be made:

1) It doesn't freaking matter what your critique of his critique is, and
2) If a critique of a poem doesn't tell the poet how to write, then what exactly the FIG does it do?

What do you accomplish by criticizing the critic? Nothing. Stick to the goddamn poem. You can mention disagreeing with a critic's specific view, and then go into your own, but incessant blah-blah-blahing about how this critic should and shouldn't do this-and-that is just useless. I myself only think that three or four poets on all of Darkforum are any good, but I'm not about to rip on someone if he or she gives a glowing review of a poet I don't like, or a scathing review of a poet I do like.

It's harder to critique stuff here because I don't think most of the people who write poetry here are poets, or even consider themselves to be poets. In my opinion, this board is nothing more than an extension of the Online Journals board, only with more line breaks and a lot of rhyming. Therefore, a lot of people think that if you're ripping on their poem, then you're ripping on their journal entry, and are therefore ripping on their thoughts & emotions & life itself. In simple terms: no. No, if I say your poem is lame, I don't mean your life is lame. What I DO mean is that the poem you wrote to describe your thoughts and emotions is lame. If you write it as a poem, then it's a poem. Poetry is art, and art is wide open to criticism.

Therefore, I review each and every poem I read as though it's written by a person who wants to write poetry, simply because I can, and it's easier for me. I think everybody who gives the "It's good! You have real talent!" responses should be kicked in the pants, but don't let that stop you from doing it. I suppose you should just bear in mind that you're totally wasting your time, and giving the writer much less than he or she deserves. EVERYONE who writes a poem deserves a good critique, and if you don't have the energy to give one, then don't give anything at all.

For instance, my poetry thread gets a decent number of views, but not many responses, except for a few people who regularly check it out. In my opinion, that's a million times better than a crapload of one-sentence critiques calling it "great" and "deep."

This place needs to grow a pair and be more open to any and all opinions. We also need people who actually critique poems, of which there is only one (that I know of) right now. Maybe we need a "Poetry Gestapo" of sorts, to make sure that poems are actually being treated as poems, and critiques aren't mere fluff. Meh... somebody get to work on that.

Great!

kool beans yo...i feel honored

and yes, i agree...i think a the general replies to peeps who post here is "wow, that was good" when that doesn't serve much of a purpose at all...if something's good, then i like to say why i think it's good...the same goes for something that's bad...and yes, there is such a thing as bad poetry, just the same as a bad story, a bad painting, a bad song, etc...

and i feel that what makes a lot of poetry here bad is A. the ever showing of how amateur some "poets" are by their redundant use of rhyme scheme; B. the ever "gothic" cliche...

I think this thread is really good!

lol hmm ok well, I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying, the poet does deserve a critique, however lots of people come here in a fragile state-whether that is a good thing or not is mute, we can't control mind frames of people who sign in. I have no problem with people giving a positive critic, what I do have a problem with is people saying that sux ..it's shit...what the fuck is that? and totally bashing someones first attemp down to dust. there maybe a bad poem, but if you are doing a real critic and trying to do the poet a favor then say something good about it as well. otherwise it is not construcive or helpful. And since you guys read sooo much poetry I am sure you will realize that some poetry is not meant for everyone, just because you don't like the style-doesn't make it a bad poem, it just makes it a bad poem to you, or one you don't relate to/like. whether you like it or not, "gothic" poetry is a style of poetry, maybe not a fav of the world, but still a style and if you are going to critic a goth poem then you should do so within the boundries of that style other wise you would be comparing a baker to a painter-sure they both do things for a visual effect-but otherwise the comparison ends there. I mean don't get me wrong, I read tonnes of threads here and I do get tired of the my life sux so I will slit my wrist poems, however that is where the person is at in their life and if you are going to "help them" by critiquing their poem then give both the good and bad about it. I am the first one to say you know I DIDN'T LIKE THE RHYMING OF THIS POEM, BUT THIS WORD COMBO IS COOL. that way people don't think you are hating them and out to get them "as is everyone in their life" which is the overall belief when people first comes here. unfortunately the title of the forum attracts the "goth" type writers and so we get the woo is me type people. This is a fact of life for this forum that you need to consider when critquing the poem.

all this because i told one person they weren't a poet.....i've apologized a thousand-fold, but yeah, they sucked monkey-anus.....and they're gone....maybe because of me? but fuck it....i'm just savin' them the anguish in the future....they had a much better chance bein' the next Oprah Winfrey than the next AI

anywho, i won't give "good" criticism over "bad" criticism or vice versa.....i'll just say what i think needs be said......and you've seen me give both......but i don't really go for that whole say sumtin' bad then cover it up with sumtin' good......i was in a seminar where we had to do that....start with the bad then end with the good.....i fuckin' hated it, 'cuz if there isn't anything good (and letz face it, not everything is good) then why should i make up some kind of lie or look for something positive when i'm staring straight at a pile of shit?

anywho, i CAN get a lil' carried away, and go awall......i've calmed down quite a bit (even you got to admit that Lily) but nevertheless, if sumtin' sux i'm gonna say so.....i won't go as offensive as i did with um....Ruka?.....but i will give reasons as to why said piece "sux" without actually sayin' it "sux".......what i won't do is say sumtin' sux then turn around and bullshit, sayin' i loved the placement of the commas......

and you gotta admit, i'm a damn good critiquer.....peeps here always askin' me to critique their stuff....but for some reason, when it comes to the poetry section, i tend to piss people off......and i blame it on the fact that so many people take poetry for granted....so many people think putting ink on paper and writing rhymes or cliches or gothy-whining-stuff makes them the next great american poet.....and when i say "well, boo on you!" they get all teary eyed and loose-lipped......but, since it causes such a commotion, i will find some other way to speak my mind......especially not so offensively

anywho, i'll be good....and i promise not to make anyone cry......unless someone eats my banana

I thought I was the only person who said "sucks monkey-anus" lol

I think critique is a good thing, even the brutal kind can be refreshing sometimes, but at the same time....when I started writing I sucked, but that was years ago, and now I'm published and like what I write most of the time, so to put people off track with comments can suck...becuase everyone needs practice!

Anyhoo, I didnt see the comment originally, and totally dont know the situation too well, but if someone called my stuff "bullshit" or whatever, it wouldnt bother me anyway, people take offense too easily sometimes....

Edit: this is (antihero). i'm just using the screen name i use when i'm depressed



No offense, but.... no. You said (and I quote): "if you are doing a real critic and trying to do the poet a favor then say something good about it as well. otherwise it is not construcive or helpful." The definition of "constructive criticism" is basicially "criticism which helps a person build and improve upon what he/she has created." Nothing more. You're telling us to play the game of "kiss the ass along with being honest." If I don't like anything about a poem, then I'm not about to make shit up just to spare the person's feelings. How would that be constructive? Negative criticism does NOT need positive criticism in order for it to be helpful; that's extremely ass-backward. It's nice to hear a "hey, I think this is good," but what if it isn't good? Do you have to say it anyway? I've noticed that you do that a lot in your critiques; it's painfully obvious, because your negative criticisms are always detailed, and a lot of your positives criticisms are very broad, i.e. "lots of emotion." What does that do for the poet? Anything? If there's honestly no positive aspects you can think of, then that's okay!

And you seemed to have missed my point about opinion. Of course there are lots of styles of poetry out there, but it's not like one can't objectively critique all of them. I critique poems as poems, not as gothic poems or postmodern poems or sonnets or whatever. Who gives a poop what style it is; if it's good, then I'll know it. I have every right to get on someone for writing a cliche poem about wrist cutting, because half the time, the poem isn't really about cutting, but is instead about simply being sad. The *cutcutcut* approach is overdone, and that's bad for a poem. So, if I tell someone to come up with some more creative imagery that is more specific to the person's qualms with his/her life, then that's perfectly okay. I could write a 200-line poem about suicide or depression without once mentioning any physical act of self-injury, and I would do it because who wants to identify their psyche as cookie-cutter and predictable? Not me. Just because a poem fits into a particular niche doesn't mean that it has to follow the same tired conventions time after time.

Yes, I know poets have feelings. Poets are people, and people have feelings. But, when it comes to art, creation, self-expression, etc., honesty is my only policy. I want someone's creation to do them justice, and if I can help achieve that, then I'm gonna. Sorry, but a sense of seriousness has been instilled in me when it comes to stuff like this. One should not have to speak what he doesn't believe just to be able to speak at all.

I am not saying to lie-I am saying give the good with the bad, if you can't find anything good in it then why bother responding? and I am not saying if there is something bad about it then don't point that out-but you can do it nicer ways then that sux and you sux and that's not poetry and etc.

sic-I know you can be good at critiques, and you do give positive stuff as well. and this isn't a personal attack or anything, I address my issues with you when I have them. I don't need to do it here as well.

This is just me expressing my opinion about poetry critiques just as you guys are. This is not me pointing fingers or making personal as anti was trying to do with his last post.

because someones got to do it.....it must be done and it shall be done....thatz what criticism is....silence isn't criticism, silence is avoidance....silence shows that you the reader are too weak to criticize.....besides, if someone wrote sumtin' that just totally blows and no one responds, at all, how does that help?

negative criticism is the best criticism one can receive....it teaches them how to improve.....positive criticism does nothing more than make the writer feel warm and fuzzy inside......

and i ain't attackin' nobody here.....i like this lil' talk of ours.......but sayin' "oh, how wonderful" and etc. does nothing more than stroke the writer's ego.......and i have noticed that you Lily have been gettin' into critiquin' lately....which is good, itz damn good....there needs to be more critiquers than just praisers.....i love this poetry forum, i truly do.....i've been to a multitude of others where all they did was go "wow, that was good" and blah, blah, blah....i even got banned from a forum 'cuz i was the only one that said a majority of the poems there sucked.....so i love that this place, i (and others) have the ability to speak truthfully when concerning someones work......as i said, poetry is an artform, and itz a dog eat dog world for artists.....and to quote Mr. Blonde (Resevoir Dogs) "Are you gona bark all day lil' doggy? Or are you gona bite?"

anywho....i love this place, and i look upon our writers here fondly....although i can be cruel....but i truly love this place and i want to try and make it as professional as i can.....that is, to be honest, and help, and just tell peeps how it is......my experience itself is minimal in the poetry world, but as far as i've noticed, i'm really the only one who has any.....(although, i'm sure others do too but haven't said anything)

anywho....kisses for all

lol kisses? you crack me up sic.


but whatever-honestly you guys are sounding so jaded about you own experiences that you think the only way to "break" in others or i"improve" their writing is by crushing them with what you think is brutal honesty. that's one way but not the only way. it puts people on the defence especially if they are insecure and this is the first time they ever posted their writing anywhere, and honestly most people seem to write in order to work things out in their own life and very few people here even dream about being published. This isn't a forum that mainly focuses on who can we get published... It is a place where people can come to meet other people when they are down, write a few things and get some feedback. At least that is how I see the people's motives for when they first come here. Yes that is not true for everyone, and there are people here who say "be honest-what ya think" and in that case go ahead, but you can be honest about good stuff to, even if it is the use of punctuation.

'tis true....and if there's something that's good, i'll give it to 'em....hence all the stickers and lollipops

but yes, there's a difference between "personal poetry" and "publishable poetry"....i read most poems as publishable, but will often ask if itz personal or not......if it is, i usually won't go back to their thread, 'cuz i see no point in critiquing it......

From an artistic standpoint, this is just... ludicrous. And I'm not exaggerating at all. Say this to any bona fide writer, and watch them look as shocked as I'm looking right now. Why bother responding? Because you're trying to help, and whether it's positive or negative, it's helpful! If I like something about a poem, I ALWAYS mention it... if you think I don't say anything positive just because I don't think it'll do any good, then yeah... sorry to disappoint, but that's untrue.

Obviously, you don't understand what the definition of "constructive" is. It doesn't have to be positive to be constructive. That's like saying if your friend plans on robbing a bank, and you don't think it's a good idea, then you shouldn't say anything to him because c'mon.... he totally needs to hear nothing but encouragement. What if you want the writer to see something in the work that could be improved upon? How is that any worse than a compliment? You really need to step out of that "complimentary" comfort zone of yours, because it isn't rational. I don't know where you picked it up, but it must be within some sort of moral construct. If this is the case, then remember the fact that honesty is moral. This has nothing to do with being jaded, and I'm personally offended by that statement.

I'm not tryin to "break people in"; I'm trying to be honest. And honesty is the ONLY WAY of helping someone improve. What's the only alternative? Dishonesty. If you can name one way in which dishonesty is a virtue, I'll apologize to you profusely. The poetry forum is not a place for people to "meet each other when they are down." It's a place to post poetry, and if that's not why you're here, then go to the friendship forum. I remember when people started treating this forum as a place to blather on and on a la the friendship forum, they were told to stick to discussing the poetry.

In essence, you're being a mom who is protective of her children. Yeah, nobody likes to see their kids get anything other than compliments, but a) there are no lil' kiddies here, and b) "criticism" defies that entire concept. Yes, there is a way to give negative criticism in a nice way, and that is what I do.; that's not what sixxx does, necessarily, but it's what I do. And if you can't find the positive nature in that, then I really don't understand what you're doing here. In my opinion, a person who thinks of the poetry here as "personal" first and "publishable" second shouldn't be modding this place, because he/she tends to be irked by negative remarks right off the bat.

so apparently you can't critique things and discuss ideas without going personal. this is the theme I see in a lot of "critiquing" that some poeple do. Not everyone and I wasn't saying you specifically are a nazi critiquer either. I wasn't talk about you at all. in fact I barely ever see you post in here let alone critique anything, sooooooooo for me I haven't had any complaints or issues with how you critique. but to say that negative critiquing is helpful is so far fetched that it's laughable. It can be if done right, and I have never said don't give someone something to work on but the way most people who do it is not helpful. IT tends to scares people away and makes them not want to share their poetry again-at least not for a long time, which is not helping them but giving them a complex. there is two ways of approaching life-well 2 main ways anyways I am sure there are others but most I have seen fit into this. There is something called the medical model-that is where you look at what a problem is and try to fix it. you don't look at the person, the whole picture or what other compounding factors may be involved. For example you see a poem that doesn't flow or have structure or rhymes or what ever and you pick the poem apart based on those flaws. Most people don't seem to pick on just one of the flaws but find many to dump onto the writer. They don't look at the imagery or clever word combos or the metaphors they used. Then there is the strength based model. Where you acknowledge that there is issues but there is also strengths. You tell the person what they are doing well and what their strengths are, then you help them work on their weaknesses or where they need to improve. ie: I really like the image that these word combonation created, however it seems to break up in the next line and I lose the meaning of the poem. In strength-based model you look at everything, not just what the problem is. One thing that needs to be kept in mind here is this is not a magazine or a publishing place-you are not the editors, and this is not a classroom so leave your issues with how you learned to critique poetry and what your professors said to crush your work at home. You don't need to provoke people or personalize what their area for improvement may be because you were forced to give up on that form of poetry or style when you were learning. And if you have concerns with how I mod take up with me in PM's or with a super mod, it doesn't belong in here.

y'know.....i almost want to agree, but can't....and do y'know why?

'cuz the only person here who really gives a "negative critique" is me......sure, every now and then someone might agree with sumtin' i said, or sumone might stumble in and say they didn't like this or that and whatnot, but i am primarily the only one who does give negative critiques....and in fact, i just did 15 seconds ago to um....D-sumtin'-funky-like........anywho, yeah, go back to really what started this nonsense in the first place....Ruka's thread.....who gave the bad critique....me!......and i got bashed for it....thatz fine....

but the point is, if i'm the only one who critiques negatively, and the rest critique postively, then how in any shape or form am i "scaring them away?"....

i have nothing personally against you Lily, but this

sounds like you are threatening us....sayin' we can't give negative critiques or sumtin' because you're a mod? that may not be how you meant it, but thatz kinda how it sounds....but this is DF, and everyone gets bashed sooner or later in some thread somewhere....and i rarely see you outside of the poetry section......anywho, why should the poetry section get any special treatment compared to any other section? and in fact, it somewhat does.....the poetry section is really the only section at DF where people skate about on thin ice when thinkin' about what to say when concerning someone's poem.....well, i'm sorry, i don't want to do that.....i don't like that.....and maybe you're right, maybe i sould leave my schooling and experiences at the door, but dammit, this is helpful for me too......i love to critique, itz what i enjoy doin'.....and damn near no one here, and specifically the story section, ever fuckin' critiques my shit (with the mild exception lately, specially with anti who will actually point out my "visual grossness")....other than that, i get a lot of "oooh, how wonderful"....."how wonderful" doesn't tell me anything....i want to be published, i want to make money as a writer, and "oooh, how wonderful" isn't a critique at all.....nevertheless, i don't complain (except now).....and i won't complain if someone goes "it sux"....i just wish to know why....and thatz what i try and do....

but you're right, not everyone here wants to be a writer, but some here do....some here are seekin' publishers, and some ask for my critique.....in the poetry section i can be somewhat of a nazi....i admit it.....but someone needs to be i think....no one else really is....

and i'm not tryin' to sound like a jerk, if i am i apologize....i luv ya guys, i luv this place....but um....i dunno really what to say now.....so um, yeah....i'll stop with the "YOU SUCK!" and take a different approach, but um.....yeah

again....kisses for all

I am sorry sic if you think I was threatening you with the leave your experiences at the door part. I wasn't. As I said you can give them feed back and help them work on things, and if people are asking you to critique them then fine. I have no problem with that. And over all sic I don't have a prob with you, I don't think you give horrible critiques, and I do think you balance it out well most of the time and when you don't I let you know about it. Why because in someways you are the only one who does give the honest feed back reg. However because of that honesty or what you think is helping people can read you the wrong way and just as the one part you highlighted in your above post you misunderstood, so too is sometimes what you write misunderstood.

As for the I never leave the poetry forum part-your right I don't. The relavence of that is?

And for the "scaring them away part" well there have been people that stopped posting for awhile do to the neg critiquing or bashing. I will not name names or break that confidentuality but they have and that is their choice. But it is something that has come up.

As for any specific threads, I am not draging that in here. I interpret the thread to be started probably due to the incident you are talking about, but to be generalized to critiquing. If I was wrong then forgive me.

As I said many times now-I am not meaning anyting personal about this. I do not have a prob with you sic as a person or even antihero. I was merely puting my take on critiquing on the table and offering a different side to the discussion/debate/conversation.