if you make it tubular, drugstorecowboy will go awol on your ass.

and mondo fabuloso sounds too euro. you think they'll like euro? i dig it, i dig it.

oh shite. feck me.

okay....why the rest of you suddenly felt the need to come in here and throw your two cents in, which is nuttin' more than annoyin' spam shit (and even though i'm highly guilty of it myself) this is a decent, serious discussion we've been havin' here.....Anti, Lily, and myself.....and even some others comments have been interesting, but please, stop with the spam-shit....

anyway, i agree with Anti %100......except with his gettin' all angry like, but thatz anti for ya, so whatever.....but i agree with him......especially his comment about studyin' poetry at college.....so we seem to be on the same wavelength....

but i would like to point out that the only one who seems to be all against "negative criticism" is you Lily....and thus far your reasons seem to be that:
1. you want the poetry section to be warm and inviting
2. you feel negative criticism (constructive or not?) does nothing more than "bash" the writer, thus upsetting them...and as most here are "depressed" already, that just like putting the kitchen knife against their wrist....(how poetic of me).....and that they (the posters/writers....specifically the new ones) won't want to visit here again
3. you're sick of people complaining.....(just out of curiousity, how many people have complained)
4. you think there's a good-side to everything....which would label you as quisi-aestheticist....(is aestheticist even a word?)
5. you feel that poetry is an expression of someones emotions and the such, and thus captures who they are, thus bashing the poem is like bashing them.....also, how can one bash the way someone feels?
6. this isn't a "professional" place, this is an open-net sharing experience of sorts, so there's no need to give "professional" advice....
7. not everyone here seeks to be a "professional poet"....but rather to convey their feelings
8. did i forget anything?

anywho....like i said earlier, you rarely visit any other section of DF.....but i'm sure you're aware that the other sections are quite the battlefield, and often times are nothing more than constant bashings......and though this isn't a valid excuse by an means, but why should the poetry section be so different....although, i agree that maybe the personal attacks (namely mine, like with Ruka) was extremely uncalled for....nevertheless, to assume the poetry section will be so flowery and warm compared to the rest of DF is a lil' "farfetched" in my opinion.....HOWEVER, this still doesn't give valid reason to actually "bash" the poet or his/her poetry

also, as for all the n00bs who come in here and postin' poetry......i will grant you that givin' negative criticism might turn them off, but if they can't handle it, then fuck 'em.....especially since DF's member rate seems to be 2-4 new n00bs daily.....most of which don't even actually stay.....so again, fuck 'em.....WE ARE DF....not them.....if they become DF, then great.....but as such, and assuming they visit the other sections, they best be prepared for "bashings" and the such.....just the other day i bashed the hell outta some n00b in the music thread and he was all like "FUCK YOU, THIS PLACE SUCKS!".....well, fuck him.....these are the ways of DF, if they can't handle it, oh well....buh-bye.......but the point is, so many new peeps join here daily, and they come here to post poetry, and we (i) give them criticism....and i've been good lately, but they can't even handle that? well....psht....whatever.....besides, how many peeps "regularly" visist the poetry section as opposed to those who come in, write some shit down, then leave? a lot.....

also....this is an open-net like place, but there are thousands, maybe even millions of other forums just like this.....and of all the forums i've been to, DF has the best poetry section i've ever seen....itz popular, peeps always posting, and DF is the only place...THE ONLY PLACE where i've seen negative criticism....(i like to think i had a key part in this).....DF (in my opinion) stands out from the rest because we aren't so lovely-dovey and are real and true.....we don't want to wear plastic smiles, and certainly don't want to blow steam up someones ass for writing something pathetic....let them go elsewhere.....what does it really matter? there will always be some new n00b joining tomorrow.....plus, itz a way to weed the horrible ones from the good ones......would you rather read shit poetry over and over and over and over, constantly blowin' steam up their ass 'cause you don't want to offend them and make them feel welcome? or would you rather have someone who's talented continually post, and accept the feedback (negative or positive) and love this place as much as we do?

and even though this isn't a "professional" place doesn't mean we shouldn't excerices what expertise we do have......the poetry section is filled with great poets.....and many of us love to read what each other has to express....and if i go into say, Velvet's thread, or even your's for that matter, or someone comes into mine, they/we love to see what people have to say....but does it, or does it not, irk your bubble when all someone really has to say is "Oh, how wonderful"....wouldn't you rather love to read what someone really thinks, especially if they give a critique, or question why you wrote said piece, or what said piece is about? i know i do....and i know many of you do too......so you take that on one hand, those of us who are the regulars all accept and somewhat love one another and respect one another......yet someone new comes in, and itz BAM!...skate around on thin ice and be nice and say "Oh, how wonderful".....why? so they'll feel accepted among us? so they'll be inclined to stay? well, aren't we just lying and belittling ourselves? how are they accepted among us if we lie, or pretend to be as we really aren't? what, should we wait until they've written 20 poems before bein' truthful?

i want to weed the bad from good.....i want to be honest.......

but what are we really talkin' about here? we're talkin' about the n00bs....all those new "poets" who come in here......they're the ones who seemingly "complain" because they aren't accustomed to DF....it happens virtually in every section.....DF is a "dog eat dog" forum....and i know that doesn't give valid reason to "bash" or "respond negatively" to someone who's new or new to the poetry section, but it's just sumtin' that's in a lot of our mindsets.....like mine.....but, what i'm thinking, is i think a subform is a BAD idea honestly.....i think it would be better to revise the STICKY "NEW POETS PLEASE READ" or whatever with a WARNING! NEW POETS PLEASE READ or sumtin', and just sort of explain the poetry section to them....just tell them that there's a handful of us here who are regulars, who are comfortable with eachother, and that posting a poem might result in either postive or negative feedback.....just tell them that might be subjected to "negative" criticism....and if they think they can't handle it, then post at their own risk.....that way, if they do post, and get negative feedback, and then bitch about it, or PM a complaint to you, then you can simply be like "sorry, maybe you should have read the stick thread".....

but thatz just a thought....

anywho, i'm off to read poetry....

all in all, conservatism breeds the death of creativity and new things...

now that was well said....

and it doesn't even rhyme!

exactly. I'll say in two letters why the opposing viewpoint was making me angry:

PC

yep, the good ol' PC era. everything's gotta sound super-happy. if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. turn that frown upside down! gray skies are gonna clear up! put on a happy face! Blah blah blah bling bling bling blah.

The fatal flaw therein is that so-called "negative" criticism is something of a misnomer: though it points out a problem with the poem, it ultimately yields positive results, if taken and applied properly. No intelligent criticism is bad criticism. A brief "you suck" is not intelligent, and a long discussion on why you're a better poet isn't criticism. The fact of the matter pretty clear to me, and it's that if your intentions are aimed at the poet toying with the poem until it's damn good, then you're doing the right thing. When white lily says "say something good about it," it makes me thing: how is constructive negative criticism not good? it's about at sincere and benevolent as you can get! it's saying, "hey man... i bet if you did -fill in the blank-, your poem would be better than it is now." i'd much rather hear that than hear, "hey man.... that poem is AWESOME," because I can't go anywhere with that. I can't dissect anything, fine-tune anything or reorganize anything with that lil' bon môt. If constructive, negative criticism isn't "something good," then I'll be a monkey's uncle... and i don't have nieces or nephews, so shut up about my relatives being ugly.

Now, if we could stop waxing intellectual here, I'd like to get back to being hostile and pissed off and hateful, because I don't want to disappoint any of you.

OMFG! You guys are so missing the point. it would be funny if it wasn't so painful. Maybe stop trying to justify what you guys do and read-not critique, but read what I said. I have been very consistant in saying that YOU CAN TELL PEOPLE WAYS THEY CAN IMPROVE. However I have issues over when you totally say this was bad_, I didn't like this, this didn't work because...etc. antihero what you said ""hey man... i bet if you did -fill in the blank-, your poem would be better than it is now."" then that is fine, because you aren't systematically pointing out every flaw you can think of, but your saying "I like this, this would make it better, but I like this." WHICH IS GREAT> !!!!!! Even if there was a few things then that could be worked on-the way it was worded is what i care about.

As for why should this forum be different then the rest of the board? Why shouldn't it? It has been different so far, why should we get worse in our treatment of people just cause the rest of the board bashes everyone?

Well, either what you said initially was entirely different from what you're saying now, or you imissed my initial point, too. As for you not thinking there's a such thing as "bad" poetry, lemme ask you this: is there a such thing as a "bad" movie? a "bad" album? a "bad" website? Is no work of art ever "bad," or are you just limiting that to poetry? If I had to review for what everybody was dubbing the crappiest movie of the year, would I be wrong in saying that it's bad, with "bad" meaning poorly executed, poorly directed, poorly acted, etc.? I think not. I think that many forms of art have standards of excellence, or at least standards of UNexcellence. There would be absolutely no critics on the planet if we as a society thought it was somehow illogical to call a piece of art bad; hence, my statement that you are living in Happy Fairy Land.

As for, "it would be funny if it weren't so painful": for a small fee, i can most easily knock you off your high horse for a bit of wrasslin'. If you want to get condescending, remember that you're dealing with someone who's a much bigger asshole than you are

actually, he's a fuzzy, cuddly, teddy bear. that's why he never posts pics.

p.s. NDP all the way.

yeah, i'm sorry lily......either you meant to say that, but didn't, or you just totally changed your statement.....

nonetheless, giving negative criticism, whether in a "nice" manner or "not-so-nice, but-not-bashing" manner is still negative criticism......saying "hey man, i think if you did _________ your poem might sound better" might have a different connotation than "i didn't like your poem, and i'll tell you why" (which is how i go about it)....but A. itz still negative criticism, and that connotation is for children and ignorant adults who are easily offended, not intellectuals.... B. there's also another connotation present, "I THINK YOUR POEM would sound better with ________" reads as a suggestion of I AM A BETTER WRITER AND SHOULD WRITE YOUR POEM FOR YOU...whereas "I didn't like it, lemme tell you why" is more of a critical opinion on the matter.....

anywho....yeah.....everyone calm down....calm down........

this reminds me of one of those booklets with those fill in the blank games...ie:

Hello six(sic)sixxx, I think you are a very _______ (adj.) person. Do you think you could suggest ways to _______(verb) my poetry so that I might be able to _______ (verb) my father. I want do this because I really think he is a ________ (adj.) person and I want to ________ (verb) him very _______ (adj.) and painfully, so that I find _______ (noun).

hahahahahahahahaha......man oh man.....

i love not posting pics of me. it's great. i posted some a couple years ago, but they're gone.

anti has a snaggletooth that truly defies logic. he once opened a can of tuna with a single swift strike, it was awesome.

I remember though, and he's a fine fine specimin.

this is sections of each post I made with the exception of the last few about the subforum. Tell me how I am not consitantly saying give good with bad? tell people how they can improve? I even read this out to my bf who is a eng major as well and even he says that it's different words saying the same type of message.

As for the whole bad movie thing, I have seen some really dumb movies however there is at least one thing in it that is good and I think that can apply to every art forum.

*gasp* your boyfriend agreed with you instead of a bunch of strangers? you lie!

Yes, that is what you said, and that's what we disagree with: the whole "give good with the bad" argument. You are arguing that positive criticism is "good," and negative criticism is "bad." Our argument is that there IS no "bad" criticism; there's either criticism, or flat out moronic insults. Anything that helps is "good." If you're saying we should give good criticism on top of giving insults, then no; I don't like insulting peoples' work.

As for saying there's always at least one good thing in every movie and art form, I am giving you the coveted "Total Crap Award" for that statement. Tell me you didn't crack a smile when you typed that. I'm going to make a movie tonight. It's going to show nothing but me jamming push pins into my right kneecap, to the tune of "I'm too Sexy" by Right Said Fred. I'm going to finish it off by shooting and killing dogs and cats with a pair of left-handed safety scissors, and i will then decapitate them and stick the heads on popsicle sticks. I am then going to call it "art" and ask you what's good about it. Does that work for you?

Maybe you should watch Cannibal Holocaust. Go out and find it, foreal. Tell me what you love about it.