So, I was reading the Workshop thread (which I'm way behind on doing my homework for), and FuckDoll said something that ended up stopping me from posting because I wanted to stew it over for a bit;


And, after thinking about it... I don't have any real conclusions. I knew right away that that statement wasn't true about me. I prefer rhymes in the whole numbers. I always have. And I had subconsciously assumed that everyone else did, and I guess assumed that when people used other forms it would because it was easier. I've even done half-rhyme myself before, but I never really liked that stuff as much as the stuff I've written in full-rhyme. But no one seemed to disagree with that sentiment.


So, I guess this is just to see which people prefer. All my favorite lines and poets have used the full-stuff, but that's just my opinion.

there are 4 types of rhyme...well 3 actually...the one is kind of an off-shoot

you have end-rhyme, which is like: time, lime, dime, grime.....etc.

you have eye-rhyme (which is like end-rhyme, but not with sound): good, food....home, some....

you have internal rhyme (which is what Fuck-Doll is sorta suggestin' with half-rhyme....itz a rhyme thatz not actually an end-rhyme), such as: myself, hell.....owl, flower....

and then you have alliteration (purdy self-explanatory): an avid alcoholic aches to await another sip....

the thing is, is that end-rhyme is somewhat old-fashioned (especially in a style of rhyme scheme....you know what this is, yes?).....anywho, end-rhyme has essentially been abondoned by poets ever since the modern movement.....

the only poets i know of that still use end-rhyme are Slam Poets....which i can best describe as a style of poetry thatz kinda like rap, but it doesn't have a rhyme scheme per se.....

but generally speakin', most poets today don't really care for typical end-rhymes....nor do most publishers, poetry scholars, and the like....itz considered old-fashioned and too amatuerish.....especially if a rhyme scheme is in effect.....i don't mind rhyme myself, as long as itz not rhyme scheme, and as long as itz just played around with.....i prefer alliteration and internal-rhyme myself.....it is more pleasin' to hear, and itz more natural, and itz more poetic.....

Since you spelled "integer" wrong, I'm just gonna point that out, and claim that I can't answer the question because of your misspelling:

Well, I don't really know what "interger" means, so I guess I can't answer. I know what "integer" is, but that's something totally different.... right?

Dude, you'd be the meanest English Prof. EVER. haha. You'd have students with rifles after you...!

I'll go with half. But I mean really that's just my preference. By all means, you don't have to agree, different people like different things. End rhyme just get's me... get's me bad, 99 times out of 100 it's just icky bad stuff. Granted there are some famous poets who utilize it great, hence them being famous. I don't know... haha... it's just a preference.

I posted this at 6 am, and I was very tired. I apologize profusely and beg your forgiveness.


Jackass.

PS: Thanks for the warning.

PPS, Sixx; I've noticed that's the modern preference, but my ears don't agree with it. I don't think modern poetry has anything on Poe or Frost or Yeats. Of course, I realize this is all subjective, but I was trying to get a scope of people's opinions. I wonder if more people would listen to poetry today if end-rhyme hadn't been abadoned.


How can you classify alliteration as rhyme, anyway? It seems to me to be something totally different. Same with eye-rhyme. Neither one has much value that I've ever noticed in an actual poem.

um, yes they do....

rhyme isn't necessarily denote as "sound".....those are the scholory defintions of rhyme

end-rhyme (as well as eye-rhyme)
internal-rhyme
alliteration

only eye-rhyme isn't a rhyme based on sound....all others are.....alliteration is more like "begin-rhyme"....itz the sound at the beginning of each word.....

and yes, eye-rhyme was, and still somewhat is, a very popular form of rhyming....especially in rhyme-scheme.....the two essential rhyming styles of the past were "end-rhyme" and "eye-rhyme"........you saw a lot of eye-rhyme in epic poetry and sonnets and such....

as for Poe bein' a good poet.....boo!!!! i don't mind Poe, but he's not really renowned for his poems...except "The Raven".....but i never studied Poe

quite frankly, all throughout college, i never studied any of the so called big names in the olden days.....

we studied more of the modern big names....Ginsberg....Plath....AI....e.e. cummings....Ackerman....Rita Dove....etc, etc, etc....

I guess that's a style difference. One of my favorite poems, "Alone", is by Poe. I don't want to come across as someone trying to come across as some kind of expert, because I know I'm not. I just read poetry and once in a while try to write it, it's not something I'm extremely educated about. I just know what I prefer. I will say readily that end-rhyme has much more of a tendency to sound terrible than internal rhyme. That's what I meant when I said that internal rhyme is easier; it's very hard to make end-rhyme sound good. I don't think anything else is as beautiful when it's done right, though. I've liked poems that didn't use end-rhyme, but I haven't loved any.

oh man.....i suggest you buy an anthology consisting of modern poets.....i mean, Bukowski son....BUKOWSKI!!!!!!! and Ginsberg....awe, Ginsberg.......but yeah, i highly suggest you buy an anthology

If you go buy a Poe anthology, I'll do that.

i had some....got rid of 'em.....i've read a lot of Poe....but i hate his poetry....he's awful....just a few weeks ago at my Lit Club someone read a poem by Poe.....afterwards, it was kinda funny, i said "i can't stand Poe's poetry...he's horrible" and everyone agreed with me...i felt bad for the reader, but eh...it happens.....anywho, Poe's stories are good though....my favorite is "Masque of the Red Death"....and "Don't Bet the Devil Your Head"......

but Poe as a poet....ahck!!!!! just about as bad as Sherwood Anderson's attempt at poetry.....or Shakespeare's for that matter......granted, Shakespeare is one of the kings of sonnets, but his regular poetry.....ahck!!!!!!!

writers are funny like that.....like, take Ginsberg for example.....his haiku's are horrible....his basic, standard poetry, and some of his attempts at rhyme scheme, horrible.....his beat-poetry and surrealistic style, fuckin' great man.....

What else can I say but that my opinions are the exact opposite?


The consensus of the masses or of the so called experts doesn't concern me at all, because these things will change. What is considered cutting edge and mature now will be forgotten in twenty, thirty, fifty years. A new trend will emerge. It doesn't matter. Trends have no lasting value. The only thing with lasting value is a personal view of beauty, which lasts only as long as the person holding it. I doubt I'll ever consider Poe's poems ugly (although he is not my favorite poet; I would rank Frost, Tennyson, Yeats, and Eliot above him for starters). I doubt I'll ever have more than a passing fancy for internal/half rhyme, but that's more susceptible to change.

I consider the entire modern art movement ugly, though. It's like a child that never grew out of adolescence; any chance to rebel is viewed as high art. Someone throws shit (literally) on a canvass and it's put in a museum. The greatest visual artists of our age are not in museums at all. They're on Magic cards and Fantasy novel covers and inside of children's books. The greatest authors of our age aren't writing for adults, adults want nothing to do with anything quality anymore. The best authors alive are writing for children. The most talented poets and musicians simply aren't supported by anyone. Modern art is style over substance, the promotion of an image and an attitude and nothing of beauty; fuck, these are the people that put a painting of a can of soup in a museum. Talk about Toucan Sam while beating two sticks together, and you'll get a bunch of magazine covers and a Nobel prize as long as a big name likes your haircut.

*disclaimer; this is my opinion. This should be obvious, but I'll state it anyway.

opinions are good....i'm not sayin' you shouldn't have 'em

but um, i think you're kinda confusing the art movements with the literary, and specifically poetry movements.....and i think you're confusing modernism with post-modernism....

art is all over the place....constructivism durin' the industrial era, dadaism (throwin' poo at a canvas), cubism (Picasso), art deco and surrealism (infamous surrealistic painter, Dali) shortly followed WW1, abstract expressionism around WW2 (like Pollock), minimalism and color-field painting in the 50's, conceptual art, and on and on and on and on until BAM! you have post-modernism (weird for being the sake of weird), or doin' funny, stupid things......you might get a kick out of this, there's this group called Rt (pronounced "art"....the R is like that trademark symbol....y'know?)....anywho, a few years back members of this group went out and bought a talkin' barbie doll and a talkin' GI-Joe doll....what they did was they tore 'em apart and switched their vocal thingies, then put them back together and took 'em back to the store, they didn't even ask for a refund, they simply put the toys back on the shelves.....so thousands and thousands of parents were buying their daughters barbie dolls that were screamin' "YO JOE!....ENEMY ENGAGED!....WE'RE UNDER ATTACK!" while buying their sons GI-Joe dolls that were speakin' "Hehe, let's go out with Ken tonight!....I should wash my hair!....Let's go to the mall and buy clothes!"......is this art? well, you decide.....but it was kinda funny

as for writing, itz a lil' different

you had the modern movement (around WW1) which was really top-dog in the literary world....some of your best writers have emerged from this era....and they were concerned with all types of things....like James Joyce (experimental writing....the way the story is written as opposed to the plot per-se....very kick-ass btw...read him if you haven't), Camus (who was obsessed with the philosophical movement: existentialism....even wrote a philosophical essay justifying suicide...very interesting....note: he killed himself), but the modern movement in poetry that coincided with the modern movement in the literary world and art world was pretty popular....poets then were still using rhyme, and some were using rhyme-scheme, but they were very interested in the "psychology" of man and the "tragedy" of man....being that WW1 was such a huge ordeal back then....it was that sense that "you have it all, friends, family, love" and yet you're all alone.....and then from the 20's-50's you had some quintessential poets who started to break away from the moden movement....e.e. cummings (surrealistic poet), now surrealism poetry was kinda odd, it was all over the place....i mean, you had e.e. cummings on one end, then you had Prevert on another end who is considered a surrealistic poet, but his poetry is nothing like cummings, and then you had your standard what the poetry world does consider the modern american poet like Bukowski, Ginsberg (though Ginsberg became immensely popular in the 60's, probably the most infamous beat poet and the most infamous Jewish poet), Sylvia Plath (feminism), AI (african-american feminist), Rita Dove, Ackerman, etc. etc. etc.

but with writing, it was kind of awkward....because during the modern movement you had what was known as "Big-R Realism," which were stories that were pretty believable/mainstream/literary novels....like Portrait of the Lady and Mrs. Dalloway, and they were concerned with psychological factors....

then you had "small-r realism" which is anything that isn't rightly believable/mainstream/literary, but it is within in itz own world......like, fantasy, sci-fi, horror stories involving ghosts, vampires, monsters, etc....this is an example of "small-r realism"

and you also had the "linguistic writers"....which were primarily blacks, who wrote how they spoke....

but like, the literary world is more interested in "genre" nowadays, rather than "movements"....art is interested in movements....poetry kinda meets in the middle, but primarily poetry follows poetic movements....

in what might be considered post-modernism, poetry is kinda branching off into different schools of poetry.....i mean, you have poets doing all sorts of things, but the primary school of poetry is prose poetry....has been for about 30-40 yrs now.....you have street-poets....you have slam-poets....you have linguistic-poets (which might fall in line with po-mo, in the sense that itz all about the sound/words of the poem rather than the meaning).....gothic poets are still around (Poe was a gothic poet)....neo-gothic/angsty-teenie poetry.....and some surrealism and experimental poetry is still around too....

but, like whatever you want to like.....but, itz just standard that if you want to be a poet or try to get published as a poet, rhyme-scheme isn't goin' to help you much....the only poets that still rhyme (not necessarily in rhyme-scheme) are slam-poets, but slam-poetry doesn't really get published per-se because slam-poetry is more of a poet-mic-night type of affair.....

but um, like last night i was researchin' some publishers, and everyone of 'em that i came across that accepted poetry all state "No rhyme-scheme please....rhyme is fine, if subtle"......because poets today, and modern poet enthusiasts, don't really like rhyme-scheme.....you gotta remember that the new poetry movements are still very young....they're not even 100yrs old.....rhyme-scheme and rhyme has been around for many, many, many, many centuries......poetry only really started their movements during the modern era, before then all you really had were epic poetry, sonnets, love poems, etc....but all of 'em used rhyme-scheme....so, i don't think the poetry world will be reverting back to rhyme-scheme anytime soon.....itz still sick to death of rhyme

oooh, that was long....sorry....and i didn't really mean to give you a history lesson or anything, but i just thought that it might give you a better understanding of the literary and poetry world......at least, thatz how i've come to understand it...