When I'm Secretary of Education - Page 7 - Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions

Dyshade · 05-01-07

And if you do want SOUND evidence written by an expert please read the following which distinguishes between sound corporal punishment and overly severe punishment which DOES have an effect on development. But there is a great difference between spanking a child and severely beating a child into submission. Most studies DO NOT take this into consideration and there-fore are not sound studies.
http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/nztabconts.47.pdf
Fun that.

Pyrric Dicktory · 05-01-07

i side with a beating, from MY own expierience. my child is incredibly intelligent and knows how to exploit people allready. she knows when she's with her grandparents, my parents, she gets whatever she wants, when she wants. she tells my father what to do and where to stand, no shit, that's no embellishment, and he does it. she knows when she's around me that i have no problem going to that ass, and is way more well behavied. while younger, i thought "i will never hit my child, i will talk to him/her and find a suitable punishment" have a kid, time out doesnt equal dick.

Iron's Rite · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Its because it is. Its because teaching kids to be pussies (IE not physically correcting thier behavior as WELL as rewarding good behavior) makes them turn out as mal adjust little wierdos unable to cope with reality. Adults who fold under pressure ad act like snivveling little cunts when someone who is nuts is trying to harm them.

Okay, give me realistic reasons why anyone who wasn't smacked around as a kid is going to be incapable of defending themselves? I'm not advocating Coddling Parenting but punishing kids by strict physical punishment is simply the other end of an extreme: Often breeding Individuals who will grow up to have a very harsh, paranoid, violent streak well into adult-hood. This isn't real strength as much as it is just the results of an ingrained sense of Fear and Instability. A person who has been raised by more balanced methods will have a much more stable and secure World-view and will not overreact to tense situations. It in no way means that they can't be just as Vigilant.

Billy the Kidd · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron's Rite

Okay, give me realistic reasons why anyone who wasn't smacked around as a kid is going to be incapable of defending themselves? I'm not advocating Coddling Parenting but punishing kids by strict physical punishment is simply the other end of an extreme: Often breeding Individuals who will grow up to have a very harsh, paranoid, violent streak well into adult-hood. This isn't real strength as much as it is just the results of an ingrained sense of Fear and Instability. A person who has been raised by more balanced methods will have a much more stable and secure World-view and will not overreact to tense situations. It in no way means that they can't be just as Vigilant.

Because they are afraid to get hit. They are afraid to take a hit. Therefore they become pussified losers who want to submit on average instead of fight back when someone is tormenting them. You might think "reasoning" and "discussion" is better than bringing it to fists, but I call that an incomplete personality. A person who cant defend themself because they are afraid to fight back or ge thit isnt a man but a pussy, a chump. And Every person I have ever known who grew up with parents that didnt spank or at least roughly handle them when they were misbehaving grew up to be a big fucking cream puff. We used to lay into these kids in the boxing club and in football practice. They usually quit within the week.

Billy the Kidd · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrric Dicktory

i side with a beating, from MY own expierience. my child is incredibly intelligent and knows how to exploit people allready. she knows when she's with her grandparents, my parents, she gets whatever she wants, when she wants. she tells my father what to do and where to stand, no shit, that's no embellishment, and he does it. she knows when she's around me that i have no problem going to that ass, and is way more well behavied. while younger, i thought "i will never hit my child, i will talk to him/her and find a suitable punishment" have a kid, time out doesnt equal dick.

My folks used to whip me, my other 2 brothers got "time outs" because we werent living in a slum anymore, but the burbs. Rick turned out gay and Colby is the most irresponsible person I have ever known. I Love him to death hes my brother and I would do all I could to make his life easier, but damn they fucked him up.

Billy the Kidd · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

Kids who learn consequence and reward live better lives. Consequences should include forms of corporal punishment. Rewards should include exceptional praise and occasional treats.

As such spankings are not overtly harmful nor has there been ANY scientific evidence posited which would prove that it is exceptionally harmful to the development of children.

I hate quoting the bible but in this situation I see the complete irony of it all

---
"" "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." (See also Proverbs 22:15 and 23:13-14.)"",, Proverbs 13:24

Its true. If all you get are time outs and such youre raising a loser and a pansy. Spankings arent supposed to be beating or agony, but they are utterly humiliating though. Which is why when I was a kid I wanted to avoid them. Not because I was afraid of pain.

Iron's Rite · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Because they are afraid to get hit. They are afraid to take a hit. Therefore they become pussified losers who want to submit on average instead of fight back when someone is tormenting them. You might think "reasoning" and "discussion" is better than bringing it to fists, but I call that an incomplete personality. A person who cant defend themself because they are afraid to fight back or ge thit isnt a man but a pussy, a chump. And Every person I have ever known who grew up with parents that didnt spank or at least roughly handle them when they were misbehaving grew up to be a big fucking cream puff. We used to lay into these kids in the boxing club and in football practice. They usually quit within the week.

In your zealousness, you only serve to help establish my point. Thank you.

Dark Messiah · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

No no, no no... tis thread is about your bullshit. Dont try to pull a DM and swing it around. Kindly prove that good parents who dont spank thier kids, have kids that turn out better than good parents who do. You fucking douchetard.

I suppose no body of evidence qualifies as sufficient proof in your magical little world- unless, of course, it supports the point you're trying to make, and then any flimsy speculation will do.

Why don't you read what I post if this thread is about my bullshit? Would that put too much of a strain on your imagination?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Its because it is. Its because teaching kids to be pussies (IE not physically correcting thier behavior as WELL as rewarding good behavior) makes them turn out as mal adjust little wierdos unable to cope with reality. Adults who fold under pressure ad act like snivveling little cunts when someone who is nuts is trying to harm them.

Does being more likely to graduate college, earn higher wagers, and avoid being involved in violent crimes constitute being a mal-adjusted little weirdo in Billy's world?

It's a rhetorical question. I already know that it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

Kids who learn consequence and reward live better lives. Consequences should include forms of corporal punishment. Rewards should include exceptional praise and occasional treats.

As such spankings are not overtly harmful nor has there been ANY scientific evidence posited which would prove that it is exceptionally harmful to the development of children.

Except all the evidence that I posted. There's scads more I could dig up, but if you're not going to read the first dozen links, I don't know why I should expect you to read the next dozen.

Quote:

I hate quoting the bible but in this situation I see the complete irony of it all

---
"" "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." (See also Proverbs 22:15 and 23:13-14.)"",, Proverbs 13:24

Solomon was a murderer, an adulterer, and an idolater. He was a tyrant who taxed his people to the point of poverty in order to buy lavish palaces and temples and support his hundreds of wives and concubines. His son grew to be so hated as to cause a civil war that split the nation of Israel. I don't think there's any reason to listen to his advice on parenting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

And if you do want SOUND evidence written by an expert please read the following which distinguishes between sound corporal punishment and overly severe punishment which DOES have an effect on development. But there is a great difference between spanking a child and severely beating a child into submission. Most studies DO NOT take this into consideration and there-fore are not sound studies.
http://people.biola.edu/faculty/paulp/nztabconts.47.pdf
Fun that.

Sigh. Corporal punishment of children: Studies of its effectiveness and dangers

While there is certainly a problem of bias in studies going both ways on the subject, that doesn't mean that no conclusions can be drawn or that no studies are more or less neutral.

It's also telling that the best argument pro-spanking advocates can muster is, "Well, we can't conclusively prove that it's worse than not hitting your kids". If you're not even going to pretend that there's any actual evidence that spanking your kids is better for them than not, why are you striking your children in the first place? Surely this isn't something you desire to do, is it? All logic suggests that, were all the evidence wrong and spanking was actually no better or worse than other forms of child rearing, you would still abandon it as there's no reason to hit your child without some sort of benefit arising from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrric Dicktory

i side with a beating, from MY own expierience. my child is incredibly intelligent and knows how to exploit people allready. she knows when she's with her grandparents, my parents, she gets whatever she wants, when she wants. she tells my father what to do and where to stand, no shit, that's no embellishment, and he does it. she knows when she's around me that i have no problem going to that ass, and is way more well behavied. while younger, i thought "i will never hit my child, i will talk to him/her and find a suitable punishment" have a kid, time out doesnt equal dick.

"She searched for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and eleven factors, including:
bullet In childhood: immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse by that parent, child aggression;
bullet In adulthood: abuse of ones own children, abuse of one's spouse; and
bullet In both childhood and adulthood: mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior.

She found "strong associations" in each case. One factor -- immediate compliance by the child -- was positive; the other ten factors were negative. She suggests that these observations give insight into why corporal punishment is such a controversial matter:
bullet Many parents strongly support spanking because they are rewarded with immediate compliance by the child whenever this discipline technique is used.
bullet Many researchers strongly oppose spanking because of serious negative affects on the child during childhood and later in life."

From the link above. If I hit a child and told them that I would do it again unless they acted like a duck, they would probably act like a duck. Torture works that way. That doesn't mean it meets any of your long- or even mid-term goals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

My folks used to whip me, my other 2 brothers got "time outs" because we werent living in a slum anymore, but the burbs. Rick turned out gay and Colby is the most irresponsible person I have ever known. I Love him to death hes my brother and I would do all I could to make his life easier, but damn they fucked him up.

.... is the implication supposed to be that you turned out great? I think I'd rather have my future son be gay than be Billy.

Billy the Kidd · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

I suppose no body of evidence qualifies as sufficient proof in your magical little world- unless, of course, it supports the point you're trying to make, and then any flimsy speculation will do.

Why don't you read what I post if this thread is about my bullshit? Would that put too much of a strain on your imagination?

Does being more likely to graduate college, earn higher wagers, and avoid being involved in violent crimes constitute being a mal-adjusted little weirdo in Billy's world?

It's a rhetorical question. I already know that it does.

Except all the evidence that I posted. There's scads more I could dig up, but if you're not going to read the first dozen links, I don't know why I should expect you to read the next dozen.

Solomon was a murderer, an adulterer, and an idolater. He was a tyrant who taxed his people to the point of poverty in order to buy lavish palaces and temples and support his hundreds of wives and concubines. His son grew to be so hated as to cause a civil war that split the nation of Israel. I don't think there's any reason to listen to his advice on parenting.

Sigh. Corporal punishment of children: Studies of its effectiveness and dangers

While there is certainly a problem of bias in studies going both ways on the subject, that doesn't mean that no conclusions can be drawn or that no studies are more or less neutral.

It's also telling that the best argument pro-spanking advocates can muster is, "Well, we can't conclusively prove that it's worse than not hitting your kids". If you're not even going to pretend that there's any actual evidence that spanking your kids is better for them than not, why are you striking your children in the first place? Surely this isn't something you desire to do, is it? All logic suggests that, were all the evidence wrong and spanking was actually no better or worse than other forms of child rearing, you would still abandon it as there's no reason to hit your child without some sort of benefit arising from it.

"She searched for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and eleven factors, including:
bullet In childhood: immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse by that parent, child aggression;
bullet In adulthood: abuse of ones own children, abuse of one's spouse; and
bullet In both childhood and adulthood: mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior.

She found "strong associations" in each case. One factor -- immediate compliance by the child -- was positive; the other ten factors were negative. She suggests that these observations give insight into why corporal punishment is such a controversial matter:
bullet Many parents strongly support spanking because they are rewarded with immediate compliance by the child whenever this discipline technique is used.
bullet Many researchers strongly oppose spanking because of serious negative affects on the child during childhood and later in life."

From the link above. If I hit a child and told them that I would do it again unless they acted like a duck, they would probably act like a duck. Torture works that way. That doesn't mean it meets any of your long- or even mid-term goals.

.... is the implication supposed to be that you turned out great? I think I'd rather have my future son be gay than be Billy.

Again, no evidence of your claims. Typical. And since when could faggots like you breed? I suppose its only natural that one queer would want to birth a queer right?

Billy the Kidd · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron's Rite

In your zealousness, you only serve to help establish my point. Thank you.

OOOOOooooOOOoOoOOOOooohhhhh SNAAAAAAAP Nigga got served. Do you have any actual rebuttal or just more limp wristed smart mouthed comments that prove you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground.

Dark Messiah · 05-01-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Again, no evidence of your claims. Typical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/bul1284539.pdf (This one's really long)

Delinquency, Corporal Punishment, and the Schools

Mothering Magazine Article: The Negative Effects of Spanking and some Healthy Alternatives

http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/mappvalsum.pdf (This article actually uses statistics to try and prove that a tactic of "conditional spanking", two or so mild swats delivered only when the child resists other forms of discipline, is not harmful. However, the authors are then unintentionally conceding that other forms of spanking are harmful. I don't really have a problem with what the author is advocating anyway- it's a far step removed from the spanking that Social Conservative parents advocate that is essentially a beating.)

Effects of spanking in early childhood American Family Physician - Find Articles

Corporal Punishment (Doesn't cite or use statistics, but it's interesting as a 110 year old read on the subject)

And on, and on, and on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Sigh. Corporal punishment of children: Studies of its effectiveness and dangers

...

"She searched for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and eleven factors, including:
bullet In childhood: immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse by that parent, child aggression;
bullet In adulthood: abuse of ones own children, abuse of one's spouse; and
bullet In both childhood and adulthood: mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior.

She found "strong associations" in each case. One factor -- immediate compliance by the child -- was positive; the other ten factors were negative. She suggests that these observations give insight into why corporal punishment is such a controversial matter:
bullet Many parents strongly support spanking because they are rewarded with immediate compliance by the child whenever this discipline technique is used.
bullet Many researchers strongly oppose spanking because of serious negative affects on the child during childhood and later in life.".

I find myself saying this a lot lately, but: didn't you used not to be a retard? I could've sworn you were once capable of rational dialogue. Have things changed that much? Were my standards so low, or this simply my memory playing tricks on me?

Billy the Kidd · 05-01-07

nospank, stophitting, mothering.... hmm got any actual evidence and not weak editorials from anti spanking bullshit websites?

Pyrric Dicktory · 05-02-07

dont write me a letter dm. i dont care. my kid said "i thought you were going to smack me, daddy" she fucked up again and i took her around the bread isle at food lion and took good care of that ass. kids are like life, make sure you get it right, my kid took the piss and got an asswhacking in a grocery store. i kiss my kid everynight and try and do as much as i can for her, but she's just as smart as i i am, and im convicned of that. its like monty and rommel in africa, its just who wants it more.

Dark Messiah · 05-02-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

nospank, stophitting, mothering.... hmm got any actual evidence and not weak editorials from anti spanking bullshit websites?

Actually, several of those websites were either third party editorials, or were quasi-pro-spanking websites who at least acknowledging the proven negative effects of traditional forms and applications of corporal punishment.

So, I suppose you'll only believe statistics that demonstrate that corporal punishment is counterproductive or harmful if it comes from... those that are trying to say that corporal punishment isn't those things?

I confess that I find it unlikely that any of the groups you would actually listen to would actually acknowledge or discuss statistics that demonstrate the harm caused by spanking, no matter how objective such studies.

But please, since I'm sure there must be some actual argument somewhere for spanking, that someone is trying to make; where is this evidence? What statistics prove that this is a valuable and beneficial form of child-rearing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrric Dicktory

dont write me a letter dm. i dont care. my kid said "i thought you were going to smack me, daddy" she fucked up again and i took her around the bread isle at food lion and took good care of that ass. kids are like life, make sure you get it right, my kid took the piss and got an asswhacking in a grocery store. i kiss my kid everynight and try and do as much as i can for her, but she's just as smart as i i am, and im convicned of that. its like monty and rommel in africa, its just who wants it more.

Lots of people who commit domestic abuse love their spouses and kids. Love and the desire to control and hurt aren't mutually exclusive- in fact, almost the opposite.

What was your child doing in a grocery store that made you think this kind of response was necessary?

Billy the Kidd · 05-02-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Actually, several of those websites were either third party editorials, or were quasi-pro-spanking websites who at least acknowledging the proven negative effects of traditional forms and applications of corporal punishment.

So, I suppose you'll only believe statistics that demonstrate that corporal punishment is counterproductive or harmful if it comes from... those that are trying to say that corporal punishment isn't those things?

I confess that I find it unlikely that any of the groups you would actually listen to would actually acknowledge or discuss statistics that demonstrate the harm caused by spanking, no matter how objective such studies.

But please, since I'm sure there must be some actual argument somewhere for spanking, that someone is trying to make; where is this evidence? What statistics prove that this is a valuable and beneficial form of child-rearing?

Lots of people who commit domestic abuse love their spouses and kids. Love and the desire to control and hurt aren't mutually exclusive- in fact, almost the opposite.

What was your child doing in a grocery store that made you think this kind of response was necessary?

I am just looking for real evidence, not editorials... I can editorialize all say long about what a queer you are. And please don't try ot switch this around on me, you made the claim, now back up your claims. With evidence. Not 3rd party editorials with vague feelings. I want to see some serious scientific studies without pointed agendas and grandstanding. Can you just show a little evidence for your claims? Just a little?