When I'm Secretary of Education - Page 2 - Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions

thefr0g · 04-23-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shok

5cm + deep gash across my leg from a sharpened metal ruler.
Puncture scar on right hand from a ball point pen that almost went right through.
Jesus like knife scar on side.
Permanent bump on skull near my ear from being king-hit from behind.

I could never fight back. I was on a scholarship at a private boys school. The kids that did it were the ones whose parents paid for their education, thus got away with near murder.

Oh, and fr0g, I HAVE tried to get over it. Believe me. I even got a job when I left school as a bouncer at one of Melbourne's roughest clubs to get my own back. Didn't work.
It's just a thing I have to live with. I can push it aside, but it always comes back to haunt me.

Cry me a river.

Shok · 04-23-07

Just did

Dyshade · 04-23-07

It was a damn cool river.

Do they not have laws protecting children from violence over there in the down under?

Shok · 04-23-07

They didn't really back then. Especially in private schools where you can still even get caned.

Hope fr0g liked the river. Maybe can put down a few tadp0les...

Synikul · 04-23-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shok

They didn't really back then. Especially in private schools where you can still even get caned.

Hope fr0g liked the river. Maybe can put down a few tadp0les...

Having a policy of severe corporal punishment is not the same as allowing children with knives to stab each other.

Shadowborn · 04-24-07

I don't really have a problem with caning, or corporal punishment in general. So long as it's done as a punishment, and not just so a pissed off teacher can blow off steam because they happen to be having a bad day.

Generally, our public education systems (at least in the U.S.) are fucked. We send the teachers in there to deal with all these kids, many of whom are without discipline or direction, and then tie their hands when it comes to keeping order in the classroom.

Dark Messiah · 04-24-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowborn

I don't really have a problem with caning, or corporal punishment in general. So long as it's done as a punishment, and not just so a pissed off teacher can blow off steam because they happen to be having a bad day.

Generally, our public education systems (at least in the U.S.) are fucked. We send the teachers in there to deal with all these kids, many of whom are without discipline or direction, and then tie their hands when it comes to keeping order in the classroom.

Morally and psychologically, corporal punishment is damaging. Yes, like all forms of torture, causing someone pain gets them to obey you for the short term, but it cripples their actual moral development. Children that are physically punished are many more times likely to become felons and far less likely to finish college.

Of course, I don't think we should force teachers and unruly students to deal with each other without end. Schools should simply be much brisker about kicking out problem students for one or two semesters to a year. Education is a privilege, and those who show a disdain for it can simply be left out in the cold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefr0g

Cry me a river.

Didn't you used not to be an asshole? I distinctly remember this.

Billy the Kidd · 04-24-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Morally and psychologically, corporal punishment is damaging. Yes, like all forms of torture, causing someone pain gets them to obey you for the short term, but it cripples their actual moral development. Children that are physically punished are many more times likely to become felons and far less likely to finish college.

Of course, I don't think we should force teachers and unruly students to deal with each other without end. Schools should simply be much brisker about kicking out problem students for one or two semesters to a year. Education is a privilege, and those who show a disdain for it can simply be left out in the cold.

Didn't you used not to be an asshole? I distinctly remember this.

Oh shut the fuck you pompous cocksucker.

thefr0g · 04-24-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Didn't you used not to be an asshole? I distinctly remember this.

What exactly is your point?

Dark Messiah · 04-25-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefr0g

What exactly is your point?

Just saying.

Shadowborn · 04-25-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Morally and psychologically, corporal punishment is damaging. Yes, like all forms of torture, causing someone pain gets them to obey you for the short term, but it cripples their actual moral development. Children that are physically punished are many more times likely to become felons and far less likely to finish college.

Yes, but the whole point of punishment is to inflict pain. Whether that pain is physical, such as a spanking, or financial, such as a fine, you're essentially inflicting pain upon a person in order to instruct them that the behavior which prompted the punishment is wrong. I'm leery of studies that talk about children being "many more times likely" to be this or such, because chances are many of those studies are being carried out by people that weathered such conditions just fine and went on to get degrees that allow them to do those sorts of studies. Corporal punishment was quite common in the past, yet I don't recall there being an overwhelming number of felons or colleges lacking in enrollment during those times...

...and on a more personal note, I had corporal punishment used to discipline me as a child, and I have no criminal record, and wear the cap and gown at the end of this quarter, then go on to graduate school.

Dark Messiah · 04-25-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowborn

Yes, but the whole point of punishment is to inflict pain.

Wrong.

The point of punishment in the general sense is to

1) Provide a sense of justice to the wronged.

2) Have the guilty repay their debt to the wrong and/or society.

Deter future crimes.

Quote:

Whether that pain is physical, such as a spanking, or financial, such as a fine, you're essentially inflicting pain upon a person in order to instruct them that the behavior which prompted the punishment is wrong.

A child that has a privileged taken away or withheld learns that bad behavior hurts their ability to have access to the positive aspects of society, and that those who extend them favors can easily with draw them.

A child that is forced to rebuild or help repair damage done learns the extent of the harm they've caused, and hopefully, empathy.

A child that is physically struck and told not to do something learns that the rules are determined by those with physical might, and learns to either avoid detection or be stronger than those in charge.

Quote:

I'm leery of studies that talk about children being "many more times likely" to be this or such, because chances are many of those studies are being carried out by people that weathered such conditions just fine and went on to get degrees that allow them to do those sorts of studies. Corporal punishment was quite common in the past, yet I don't recall there being an overwhelming number of felons or colleges lacking in enrollment during those times...

Yeah, everyone is under the impression that the past was rosy and without crime for some reason. There's absolutely no support for this. Crime statistics that are even remotely accurate are a fairly recent phenomena, with crime detection technology greatly advancing, and the police in general being watched more carefully and held to a higher standard than they once were. What statistics we have generally tell us that things are about as good now as they've ever been. That's not to say that the world is perfect, but the idea that it once was is bunk. The "good old days" were full of drifters and murderers, lynchings, revenge killings, mob riots, and unchecked rape and domestic abuse.

To some extent a child has responsibility for their own behavior. I was beaten growing up, and I don't consider that an excuse to be a no good felon. Neither do many people. Everyone has to overcome their own difficulties. But that doesn't mean we can't as a society acknowledge that those difficulties exist and try to mitigate them. So what if many that advocate against corporal punishment were beaten themselves and turned out fine? My grandparents were racist as Hell, and my parents turned out fine but still didn't truck with white supremacy.

Quote:

...and on a more personal note, I had corporal punishment used to discipline me as a child, and I have no criminal record, and wear the cap and gown at the end of this quarter, then go on to graduate school.

And if it's true of one child that was struck, it must be true of every child? Would you not have turned out the same if you were never so disciplined?

Billy the Kidd · 04-25-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Wrong.

The point of punishment in the general sense is to

1) Provide a sense of justice to the wronged.

2) Have the guilty repay their debt to the wrong and/or society.

Deter future crimes.

A child that has a privileged taken away or withheld learns that bad behavior hurts their ability to have access to the positive aspects of society, and that those who extend them favors can easily with draw them.

A child that is forced to rebuild or help repair damage done learns the extent of the harm they've caused, and hopefully, empathy.

A child that is physically struck and told not to do something learns that the rules are determined by those with physical might, and learns to either avoid detection or be stronger than those in charge.

Yeah, everyone is under the impression that the past was rosy and without crime for some reason. There's absolutely no support for this. Crime statistics that are even remotely accurate are a fairly recent phenomena, with crime detection technology greatly advancing, and the police in general being watched more carefully and held to a higher standard than they once were. What statistics we have generally tell us that things are about as good now as they've ever been. That's not to say that the world is perfect, but the idea that it once was is bunk. The "good old days" were full of drifters and murderers, lynchings, revenge killings, mob riots, and unchecked rape and domestic abuse.

To some extent a child has responsibility for their own behavior. I was beaten growing up, and I don't consider that an excuse to be a no good felon. Neither do many people. Everyone has to overcome their own difficulties. But that doesn't mean we can't as a society acknowledge that those difficulties exist and try to mitigate them. So what if many that advocate against corporal punishment were beaten themselves and turned out fine? My grandparents were racist as Hell, and my parents turned out fine but still didn't truck with white supremacy.

And if it's true of one child that was struck, it must be true of every child? Would you not have turned out the same if you were never so disciplined?

Yeah because a parent spanking thier child is trying to force reperations of some sort through pain on thier kid, not trying to teach them a valuable lesson.

Wicked Lady · 04-25-07

I have to disagree on corporal punishment in public schools for the simple reason that it was allowed when I was in elementary school. Your parents had to sign a waiver and permission slip. My mother never would. I was disciplined for my transgressions at home. The reasoning she gave was that you never know if the person administering the punishment is having a bad day. Maybe they have problems in their own home. Maybe they're bastards. But you just don't know.

I simply never understood why some kids are just so bad. I cut class and smoked and did all those stupid things. But I never set out with the intention of hurting anyone or being a real disruption. The problems obviously exist at home and should be dealt with at home. It shouldn't be taboo to spank your kids. I see horrible children every day.. little children whose parents don't discipline. They reason with thim. What reason do you have to give a 5 year old who won't stop screaming in a public place? NONE. He/she doesn't have the capacity to understand. So why bother explaining. You tell them in no uncertain terms that they are behaving in an unacceptable manner, and you take them to the bathroom and wear their asses out.

Dark Messiah · 04-26-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Yeah because a parent spanking thier child is trying to force reperations of some sort through pain on thier kid, not trying to teach them a valuable lesson.

There are unfathomable leagues between intent and outcome.

The problem with all arguments for spanking is that they're never based on any actual research or statistics. All they do is paint an (incorrect) picture of society falling apart, and then they imagine a false dilemma fallacy where your only options are spanking your kids or being a spineless hippie who lets their kids run roughshod over them.

And that's not to say that you can't ever lay a hand on your kid to restrain them or stop them from attacking someone or pick them up when they're refusing to move. But ritualized beatings are completely un-fucking-necessary.

Wicked Lady · 04-26-07

Ritualized beatings? That's ridiculous. A spanking doesn't hurt. It's not the pain that makes you straighten up; it's the indignity of it. I always knew the belt wouldn't hurt much, but it's the fact that your mother is bending your ass over the bed that drives the point home.

Dark Messiah · 04-26-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked Lady

Ritualized beatings? That's ridiculous. A spanking doesn't hurt. It's not the pain that makes you straighten up; it's the indignity of it. I always knew the belt wouldn't hurt much, but it's the fact that your mother is bending your ass over the bed that drives the point home.

Spankings and other such punishments can hurt plenty. I don't even know where the fuck this is coming from, you're just blatantly wrong here. Yes, the indignity and humiliation is part of it- and not a small part of why it's damaging- but it's also quite possible to make it hurt. Maybe you had soft-hearted parents, I don't know.