Tucson radio host defies police on open park carry
Serious DiscussionDiscuss Tucson radio host defies police on open park carry in the Discussions forums; The following was submitted by Charles Heller, a Tucson freedom-oriented talk radio host. We have been debating for a couple of years whether someone should challenge the false position ...
The following was submitted by Charles Heller, a Tucson freedom-oriented talk radio host. We have been debating for a couple of years whether someone should challenge the false position that the City of Tucson holds, which is that open carry in a Tucson City Park (even with a permit) is illegal. Charles Heller led the lion into his well-orchestrated trap.
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Today I had an encounter with 6 of TPD's finest. Long story, short point. I held my ground and won.
This morning at Reid Park in Tucson at the band shell I attended a support the troops rally, representing KJLL Radio and Liberty Watch. As a free person, I open carried my Glock 27 in a black leather strong side thumb break with offside mag pouch. I wore a KJLL AM 1330 t-shirt and BDU slacks.
About half way through I was at the front in the shade next to the news director Nicole Cox when TPD Sgt. Stoutmeyer walked up. He was eyeing the crowd very pointedly. He was very alert and observant. I struck up a conversation with him for about 10 minutes as he scanned the crowd, then walked off. My open carried magazine was within 20" of him.
At about 11:20 I visited the latrine and on the way back was politely hailed by 2 TPD officers, one a fellow named Brown. They told me I couldn't be in the park with a gun. I thanked them for being observant, gave them a business card (they had not asked for I.D. but I wanted to be open with them.)
I told them that respectfully, ARS 13-3108 prevented them from regulating that when I had a CCW permit, and showed them the permit. Brown asked me if that was an ASP in my front belt line. When I replied in the affirmative, he asked to see it, and I handed it to him. He commented how light it was, then hung onto it. (Smart cop. The baton is far more of a threat to him at our range than the gun.) They never took the gun or assumed an offensive posture with me. They asked nicely if I'd wait for their Sergeant, and I said, "Sgt, Stoutmeyer? I just talked to him."
Stoutmeyer came over looked at me, and said, "you?" I stood next to you for 10 minutes and saw no gun. I replied, "yeah, I talked to you in part so you could discuss the gun if you were going to. I was really admiring your alertness. I'm left handed, so that's probably why you missed it standing to my right. As a CCW instructor, I teach people to not miss the obvioust." (He winced.)
He told me that the gun was legal only if concealed, according to the Tucson ordinance. I told him that the ordninance was silent on concealment, and that if he tried to enforce what was not the law in a policemen's uniform, that it was depravation of civil rights under color of law.
"Sgt. Stoutmeyer, what is the TPD policy on officers who exceed their authority?"
"There are sanctions for that."
"Sgt., I can't protect you if you don't obey the law. I am trying to shield you from
harm here, and I am not giving you a hard time. If you are not enforcing the law you
swore to uphold, what good are laws? 18 USC 241 is a felony sir"
"Good point. I'll call the legal advisor."
"OK. I'll be under that tree over there if you want to talk, except when I'm on stage.
Brown said, "what do I do with this? (My ASP baton.) I stepped forward and took it as
Stoutmeyer said, "it's his."
15 minutes later, Stoutmeyer beckoned me to the tree. "Legal advisor says it must be concealed. If you carry openly then the next guy without a permit will see it and think he can do it without a permit. I have to ask you, since you are tape recording this, to either cover it, put it in your car, or my lieutenant says I have to cite you."
"OK Sgt. This is not the hill I want to make my stand on and disrupt the
activities. I'll untuck my shirt so as not to back you into a corner, but we are not
through. Please show me the written law that you are enforcing. I am not mad at you
personally, but the law is silent on this and you are exceeding your authority."
"I thought you'd say that so the legal advisor is on her way here with it in writing."
"OK. When it gets here, we'll take the next step. This is not my forum, but we
are not finished."
20 minutes later, he becons me over. "OK, here is the law." (Hands me a xerox.)
Tucson City Code, S 21-( Relating to recreation. No person in a park shall:
(2) Hunt, trap, or pursue wildlife at any time: use carry or posess firearms of any description without possession of a concealed weapons permit issued persuant to ARS 13-2112.....
"Hey, it says nothing here about concealed. You have a point."
"Yes Sergeant. And if you tell me it has to be concealed, and it doesn't, you have
exceeded your authority under color of law. Now the city council may have intended that
it be concealed, and if they write the ordinance that way I'll do it. But preemption doesn't give them the authority to regulate that, and if you try to enforce it,
what sanctions might you suffer? I'm trying to protect you, sir"
"I'll call the legal advisor."
(At this point my Title 18 warning card is still rubber banded to the tape recorder.)
12:50 PM, under shade tree east of band shell, witnesses Nicole Cox, Mike Fascetta, John Campbell, Pat Johnston: "Mr. Heller you are right. The law doesn't say concealed. I apologize."
"Seeing as how you were just doing what they told you, no need for an apology. I am, for the record, tucking my shirt in."
"Thank you for your attitude of not being combative with us."
"Thank you for understanding that government is the servant, not the master. (At this point state rep Randy Graf walks up.) You know, if the North and South had treated each other with the same mutual respect as we did today, there might not have been a war between the states. I just watched "Gettysberg" last night. I have the director on my show tomorrow."
"Will this be on the radio?
"Oh I promise you the oxygen of publicity, Sgt. Stoutmeyer.
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Originally posted by Sixgun_Symphony The following was submitted by Charles Heller, a Tucson freedom-oriented talk radio host. We have been debating for a couple of years whether someone should challenge the false position that the City of Tucson holds, which is that open carry in a Tucson City Park (even with a permit) is illegal. Charles Heller led the lion into his well-orchestrated trap.
Sixgun,
If you really want pepole to read your crap,..
then provide a link to your source.
Originally posted by Sixgun_Symphony Ah, but of course, you do prefer communism to our American freedoms.
Ahh... once again, on the line that Im a communist.
whatever ya reckon..
On the topic of Socialism - (you brought it up, calling me a communist.) I think Oscar Wilde had some interesting thoughts..;
Quote:
The Soul of man under socialism
by Oscar Wilde.
The chief advantage that would result from the establishment of Socialism is, undoubtedly, the fact that Socialism would relieve us from that sordid necessity of living for others which, in the present condition of things, presses so hardly upon almost everybody. In fact, scarcely any one at all escapes.
Now and then, in the course of the century, a great man of science, like Darwin; a great poet, like Keats; a fine critical spirit, like M. Renan; a supreme artist, like Flaubert, has been able to isolate himself, to keep himself out of reach of the clamorous claims of others, to stand "under the shelter of the wall," as Plato puts it, and so to realise the perfection of what was in him, to his own incomparable gain, and to the incomparable and lasting gain of the whole world. These, however, are exceptions. The majority of people spoil their lives by an unhealthy and exaggerated altruism - are forced, indeed, so to spoil them. They find themselves surrounded by hideous poverty, by hideous ugliness, by hideous starvation. It is inevitable that they should be strongly moved by all this. The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man's intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.
They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor.
But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim. Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good; and at last we have had the spectacle of men who have really studied the problem and know the life - educated men who live in the East End - coming forward and imploring the community to restrain its altruistic impulses of charity, benevolence, and the like. They do so on the ground that such charity degrades and demoralises. They are perfectly right. Charity creates a multitude of sins.
There is also this to be said. It is immoral to use private property in order to alleviate the horrible evils that result from the institution of private property. It is both immoral and unfair.
Under Socialism all this will, of course, be altered. There will be no people living in fetid dens and fetid rags, and bringing up unhealthy, hungerpinched children in the midst of impossible and absolutely repulsive surroundings. The security of society will not depend, as it does now, on the state of the weather. If a frost comes we shall not have a hundred thousand men out of work, tramping about the streets in a state of disgusting misery, or whining to their neighbours for alms, or crowding round the doors of loathsome shelters to try and secure a hunch of bread and a night's unclean lodging. Each member of the society will share in the general prosperity and happiness of the society, and if a frost comes no one will practically be anything the worse.
And finally,.. I'll respond properly to the accusation of being a 'communist'.
I believe that I am somewhat more than a socialist; Indeed I believe myself to be an anarchist.
Originally posted by Sixgun_Symphony Anarchy could not happen in a socialist society. Not when everyone must be a servant to the mob.
I think the libertarians have a better grasp on reality.
Actually most anarchists propose a decentralised form of government: which recognises equal rights for all citizens.
No form of Social class system, residing from Capitalism, or a monarchy.
Of course, if someone had actually bothered research on alternative models of a system; they might be aware of such concepts.
So then, you really do intend to put the industrious at the same level with the welfare bums. Socialism is class envy where the losers want to tear the rest of society down to their level.
Capitalism is meritocracy. You have the opportunity to go as far as your talents, hard work, and ambition will take you.
Socialism is the stagnation of society. Simply put, it kills the entrepreneurial drive that makes civilization grow. If you don't grow, you die.
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SASS #62632
Last edited by Sixgun_Symphony : 05-28-03 at 14:25.
I'm not sure how the hell this matters as far as anything is concerned. If someone on the board llives in that area and actually wishes to debate this, then fine. As it is, its a stupid story and ultimately pointless. Neither of us can sufficiently talk about it, because the only knowledge of the matter comes from a very biased story provided by you.
Hey, bread is a good time for me...a-woodle-oo-doo, singing bread is a good time for EVERYbody...
-Homestar Runner
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