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Billy the Kidd · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by theburningbush

these programs are hold overs from the depression there ideas put in place as a safety net for the economy because you need something to stop the downward spiral when its occurs. So if you elimnate them you need to put those safety nets in place any ideas for a replacement?

Yeah, the replacement is: let those who dont know enough to help themselves go fuck themselves. The weak die and the strong survive. Its the way of nature, and makes the pack stronger in the long run.

theburningbush · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Yeah, the replacement is: let those who dont know enough to help themselves go fuck themselves. The weak die and the strong survive. Its the way of nature, and makes the pack stronger in the long run.

Considering that capitlism is based on the gathering of resources and not the distribution of them by defintion there will always be poor. Considering also that Economies are built on monies flowing through them ie Consumer spending. your idea, although on the surface seems to have merit, does nothing but seal your own doom. Classical econmics tells us that yes in the long run the removal of the safety nets will balance itself out and we will once again have a stable economy. The problem is how long will that take? And how easy will it fall out of balance in todays modern world? Keynsian economics is based on the idea that I dont want life to suck today so lets attempt to control the economy, this idea led to social security, the fed, the chairman of the fed, welfare ect. The safety nets are there to help curb the downward spiral.

Ambrosio · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Yeah, the replacement is: let those who dont know enough to help themselves go fuck themselves. The weak die and the strong survive. Its the way of nature, and makes the pack stronger in the long run.

I agree with you, I all so think we should stop subsidizing weak businesses, if the tobacco, farming, and oil industries cant survive with out a safety net, it’s not my fault if they can’t adapt or die out.

Wicked Lady · 02-15-07

Ambrosio your schtick is not as witty and intelligent as you think it is. Your game is stupid and transparent. Your sarcasm is weak.

The tobacco industries might have an easier time of it if stupid hippies didn't complain about cigarette smoking. Or if people weren't so dumb as to pretend they didn't know that smoking causing risks to your health.

Billy the Kidd · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambrosio

I agree with you, I all so think we should stop subsidizing weak businesses, if the tobacco, farming, and oil industries cant survive with out a safety net, it’s not my fault if they can’t adapt or die out.

Minoritiy owned businesses as well.

Dark Messiah · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Yeah, the replacement is: let those who dont know enough to help themselves go fuck themselves. The weak die and the strong survive. Its the way of nature, and makes the pack stronger in the long run.

Pure capitalism is extremely damaging to the whole of society in the long run, it's only profitable for individuals, and even then only usually in the short term. I suppose you think public education is also a bad idea, since that's giving people a resource they haven't "earned".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Why not exchange 1 flawed emotional excuse for another, how about if your mother was murdered by some piece of shit multiple murderer who was released from prison on good time?

Why not actually try to come up with a valid reason for the death penalty that isn't a flawed, emotional excuse?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

Irregardless murderers deserve death. Anything else only coddles them. Some folks would find it worth 3 square meals a day to kill someone they hate. Yes there are those who fal through the cracks but we cannot justify imprisoning murderers because of only that. We can however easily justify death for them. Tell me how you feel about it after someone close to you has been ruthlessly slaughtered by some scumbag.

1) Juries consist of impartial peers, rather than relatives of victims, for a very good reason.

2) Deserving death and sanctioning state power to execute criminals are two seperate things.

Saying that it doesn't matter that some innocent people die, you want your fucking revenge is monstrous in every definition.

4) Imprisonment isn't coddling. You're an idiot if you think that it is.

Dyshade · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

4) Imprisonment isn't coddling. You're an idiot if you think that it is.

Does every conversation with you end with you calling someone an idiot??? You should really work on your conversation skills if this is so because it degrades every single thread into worthless back and forth stupidity. So get over it and discuss.

It is coddling. We give them more amenities than we give homeless people. 3 square meals a day, TV, books, basketballs, etc etc. It is coddling in every form of the expression and no I am NOT A FUCKING IDIOT for thinking this.

Juries have nothing to do with anything I said.

Deserving death and sanctioning States to do so in cases where murder has been committed is the exact same.

Billy the Kidd · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Pure capitalism is extremely damaging to the whole of society in the long run, it's only profitable for individuals, and even then only usually in the short term. I suppose you think public education is also a bad idea, since that's giving people a resource they haven't "earned".

Why not actually try to come up with a valid reason for the death penalty that isn't a flawed, emotional excuse?

1) Juries consist of impartial peers, rather than relatives of victims, for a very good reason.

2) Deserving death and sanctioning state power to execute criminals are two seperate things.

Saying that it doesn't matter that some innocent people die, you want your fucking revenge is monstrous in every definition.

4) Imprisonment isn't coddling. You're an idiot if you think that it is.

Fine, the death penalty is good for those who take lives and destroy lives. IE murderers and rapists. A life for a life.Keeping them alive is giving them more than they gave thier victims and thier debt is of thier life. They deserve to die. Period.

thefr0g · 02-15-07

And the few innocents that are put to death when they don't deserve it? Does the state then deserve to die for taking an innocent life?

Boomerang · 02-15-07

I'm not very educated in the ins and outs of why or why not capitol punishment is good or bad for whatever. But I DO believe that murderers and rapists, especially if they do it more than once, do not deserve to live.

However, I'm curious. What other crimes you can be executed for?

I'm trying to educate myself so I can form an opinion, so don't flame me for wanting to learn.

Dark Messiah · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

Fine, the death penalty is good for those who take lives and destroy lives. IE murderers and rapists. A life for a life.Keeping them alive is giving them more than they gave thier victims and thier debt is of thier life. They deserve to die. Period.

Saying that their life is a debt implies that by losing it, they lose something. It costs us more money to put someone to death than to imprison them for life, and they can't pay their debt to society through labor. All it satisfies is the desire for revenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyshade

Does every conversation with you end with you calling someone an idiot??? You should really work on your conversation skills if this is so because it degrades every single thread into worthless back and forth stupidity. So get over it and discuss.

No. My calling you an idiot is usually in the middle of the conversation. I do it out of concern for you. I realize that as the conversation progresses, you're going to be completely unable to keep up and counter any of the points that destroy your poorly thought out position. By calling you an idiot, I allow you an easy out where you can puff up, act indignant, and save some face by leaving and claiming the moral highground.

Quote:

It is coddling. We give them more amenities than we give homeless people. 3 square meals a day, TV, books, basketballs, etc etc. It is coddling in every form of the expression and no I am NOT A FUCKING IDIOT for thinking this.

No, you are very much a fucking idiot for thinking this. You need to not rely on Reader's Digest for your view of world events. Prison is not yacht clubs and satellite television.

Here, educate yourself a bit.

Quote:

Juries have nothing to do with anything I said.

You implied that I would be less neutral if someone I knew was killed. While true, it's completely irrelevant.

Quote:

Deserving death and sanctioning States to do so in cases where murder has been committed is the exact same.

Deserving something and the state having the power to grant it are the same thing? So if someone's business fails, but they "deserved" to succeed, the government should just pay them whatever they "should" be making a year? Or maybe, since everyone, being born equal, "Deserves" an equal shot at life, all inheritance and property laws should be broken up and all wealth divided equally amongst the young.

There are factors beyond what someone "deserves" in deciding the law.

thefr0g · 02-15-07

Rape, on its own, isn't a Capital offense anyway, so I dont know why it keeps coming up.

Billy the Kidd · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefr0g

And the few innocents that are put to death when they don't deserve it? Does the state then deserve to die for taking an innocent life?

You said dont give you the omlette egg thing, but there really isnt any other thing to say. Does someone who spends his life and dies in jail and is wrongly convicted make the government a long term kidnapper? I dont think so. I am so sick of hearing about these few minute cases that need to effect the millions of others.

Billy the Kidd · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Saying that their life is a debt implies that by losing it, they lose something. It costs us more money to put someone to death than to imprison them for life, and they can't pay their debt to society through labor. All it satisfies is the desire for revenge.

No. My calling you an idiot is usually in the middle of the conversation. I do it out of concern for you. I realize that as the conversation progresses, you're going to be completely unable to keep up and counter any of the points that destroy your poorly thought out position. By calling you an idiot, I allow you an easy out where you can puff up, act indignant, and save some face by leaving and claiming the moral highground.

No, you are very much a fucking idiot for thinking this. You need to not rely on Reader's Digest for your view of world events. Prison is not yacht clubs and satellite television.

Here, educate yourself a bit.

You implied that I would be less neutral if someone I knew was killed. While true, it's completely irrelevant.

Deserving something and the state having the power to grant it are the same thing? So if someone's business fails, but they "deserved" to succeed, the government should just pay them whatever they "should" be making a year? Or maybe, since everyone, being born equal, "Deserves" an equal shot at life, all inheritance and property laws should be broken up and all wealth divided equally amongst the young.

There are factors beyond what someone "deserves" in deciding the law.

I am going to have to go ahwead and ask you to prove it costs less to fucking feed, house, medicate, educate, etc someone as well as be sued by them with appeals for 50 eyars than it is to execute them after 10. Please include all costs for imprisonment too, because you anti death penalty folks seem to forget that living expenses dont stop after a few years when someone is confined, they exist until that person dies which can be something like 50 years and if YOU want solitary confinement more often, make it MORE expensive because now they all need thier own rooms. with lights and working toilets. Unless youre saying we should throw them into confined earthen cells with moldy bread to eat and live in darkness for years on end... then I might be inclined to change my mind. Of course you dont mean that though.... you want to coddle the scum of humanity.

Dark Messiah · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd

I am going to have to go ahwead and ask you to prove it costs less to fucking feed, house, medicate, educate, etc someone as well as be sued by them with appeals for 50 eyars than it is to execute them after 10. Please include all costs for imprisonment too, because you anti death penalty folks seem to forget that living expenses dont stop after a few years when someone is confined, they exist until that person dies which can be something like 50 years and if YOU want solitary confinement more often, make it MORE expensive because now they all need thier own rooms. with lights and working toilets. Unless youre saying we should throw them into confined earthen cells with moldy bread to eat and live in darkness for years on end... then I might be inclined to change my mind. Of course you dont mean that though.... you want to coddle the scum of humanity.

Sure, why not.

What you miss in your ferverent zeal to bring suffering upon your fellow human beings is the actual concept of profit. It is profitable to society to have prisoners working productively rather than suffering. It is profitable for society to have people emerge from prisons with a reduced rather than heightened chance of continuing in a life of crime.

Billy the Kidd · 02-15-07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Messiah

Sure, why not.

What you miss in your ferverent zeal to bring suffering upon your fellow human beings is the actual concept of profit. It is profitable to society to have prisoners working productively rather than suffering. It is profitable for society to have people emerge from prisons with a reduced rather than heightened chance of continuing in a life of crime.

I think its profitable to erase the scum so that the nonscum can live more peacefully. Any real sources? This one seems to blame the "costly" nature of the death sentence on not actually putting prisoners to death fast enough. In which I agree, if someone is found guilty of something and gets the Death Penalty it should be carried out in 12 months or less.

I also noticed they only measured the costs on a year to year basis. No real mention of the costs of feeding 1 man individually and clothing and housing him for 20, 30 or 40 years.

Boomerang · 02-15-07

My only argument is that most people in prison DON'T work productively. My uncle was in jail for six months, and he said he didn't do a damn thing. He sat on his ass and played cards all day, every day, for six months. How is THAT profitable for society?