Seems that President Bush has commited several acts similar to the ones that the Founding Fathers listed among their greivences in the Declaration of Independence. Lets take a look, shall we?

"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power."

'Nuff said.

"He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation"

Patrtiot Act, anyone? Ashcroft wants to make it permanent. Does anyone else see the danger of that?

"For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury"

Many citizens, arabs though they may be, have been detained under suspicion and denied their constitutional rights...only for it to be found that they were completely innocent. Certainly, we must be careful, but these are still American citizens with "certain unalienable Rights," as good 'ol Jefferson put it.

"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance."

Homeland Security is certainly necessary, but the ways they're doing things are just crazy. Add the Freedom Corps and other such orgainizations started since 9/11 and it builds...and builds...and builds...

"...when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

I hold these truths to be self-evident. The question is, does anyone else? Most especially George W. Bush?
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"He who is willing to sacrifice liberty for a small measure of safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin
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"A nation that limits freedom in the name of security will have neither."
- Thomas Jefferson

You make some good points, however, the Constitutioin and Bill of Rights are the foundation for laws in the USA. The UN is also there to block the actions taken by the US and Britian.

All I can say is it's better than what it used to be.

I'm I the only one who saw absolutely nothing coherent in the last post?

No, I'm not sure what was happening there either...

Your assertians are false.



Congress gave the president authority to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.

You say the Patriot Act does this, yet you have no explanations why. You want everyone to take your assertion here on faith alone.


No, not citizens, though you claim it is citizens whose rights are being violated.

Citizens have the trial by jury, even traitors like Johnny Walker Lindh are getting their day in court.

The foriegn terrorists are not American citizens. They are a foriegn enemy. These terrorists are illegal combatants and a military trial is appropiate for their war crimes.

The illegal aliens living among us are not citizens. They are here illegally and should be immediately deported back to their homelands upon capture if not tried and sentenced to time in prison before their deportation.

I've given actual text - - and the translation, in layman's terms - - on this site several times before. Most people saw it. In any case, it goes along with denial of trial by jury.

The Patriot Act violates our right to privacy, as well as various things protected under our first amendment rights.

In any case, Patriot Act Injustices: Including, but not limited to - -

- Wire/Phone taps without a warrant
- Monitoring of internet activities
- Expanded Surveillance With Reduced Checks and Balances.
- Government spying on suspected computer trespassers with no need for court order.
- Allows Americans to be More Easily Spied Upon by US Foreign Intelligence Agencies.

Some provisions in the Patriot Act have no clear focus on counter-terrorism, either...

We are all the victims.

Speaking of which, what happened to the guy who was allegedly in on the plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge? He never spoke, nothing...yet the government says "Here he is!" and he disappears...strange, huh?

Not all "aliens" are illegal aliens. What about this mandatory registering of Arabs?

A terrorist isn't a terrorist until they have comitted an act of terrorism.

Also, might I add that there was talk within the Bush administration about giving the military additional domestic powers, akin to police powers?

Registering Arabs? Technically, foriegn nationals have no right to be here. They certainly can be registered, though it's usually only done for nationals of a hostile foriegn power during times of war.

We are of course in a time of war.

As far as the patriot act, I see you have listed some assertions. Lets look at them closely, I see alot of this is internet security against hackers. Its new technology and the security agencies are keeping up with it to protect the nation. The courts will protect the Bill of Rights from any abuses of power.

Speaking of 'victims", who is this person that tried to blow up the Brooklyn bridge? Was he a foriegn national? Was he a citizen? Was it a muslim? Just what are the facts here? Perhaps the media did not think it was newsworthy?

I wonder what became of that Islamic fellow who smuggled a radioactive "dirty bomb" into the country. Now why do you suppose the liberal media dropped that story? Perhaps they wish for the American populace to forget about why we are fighting the war on terror? It is certainly easier to bash our president as a warmonger if everyone would just forget about these Islamic terrorists that have been trying to kill thousands, even millions of Americans with such nasty weapons.

He was a citizen, a trucker...he was in the new for about a day, and disappeared. A nice little distraction from the REAL problems.

My point is that most of these allegations were short lived - this way, the right can say, "Well look! See, they're doing their job! They caught this guy with a dirty bomb...and this guy who wanted to blow up the bridge! What do we have to worry about?"

Can you honestly say you would rely on the FBI and CIA for information after their many recent lapses? Blind faith isn't very intelligent.

Oh and it wasn't just the so-called "liberal" media who dropped these stories - - because it disappeared from FOX news (slogan: We're up the GOP's ass further every day!) as well.

Apart of the Constitutions Ammendments include taxation without census. It is funny. I've taken American History and Political Science, yet that seems to be left out of the course. Mistakening misplaced I guess. It passed before Women could vote. There are all kinds-of things going on now.

The Declaration of Independence was a Declaration of War, that smited the English Aristocracy. It isn't the back bone of anything current. REALLY, it isn't!

The point that was attempted to be made was that it is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights therein, and not the Declaration of Independence, that determines the laws of our country. And George Bush was elected President with full legality as the president of this country (no matter what you try to argue, no matter how stupid you think the Electoral College is, it is the law governing elections, and attempts to alter that law by politicians should be made for reasons other than said poiticians got screwed over by a technicality). As such, he has the right to move legislation and is in charge of the military branch of our government. Also if he has exceeded the bounds of his power or violated rights that should not have been violated, there are many many ways to redress this peacefully within the frame of our government, such as trying to get him impeached. The founding fathers had no such means of getting rid of Parliament or the King. Hence matters are better than they were for our founding fathers, since we have means to dispose of officials that we disapprove of.

Am I the only one who finds the term "Liberal Media" funny?

I beg to differ...it is the backbone of many of our beliefs about what a fair, just, and free government should be about. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." as it says, along with a great deal of other things. It may not be a legal backbone, but it is a spiritual one.

"Liberal Media" has gotten to be funnier.

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." many people through that out in arguements however, it isn't too worthwhile. The Bill of Rights states, "Life, property and pursuit of happiness." No one really trying to liberate themselves now. The property rights of people are being badly abused though through taxation. Try owning property when the IRS will take it away. It's not fair.

Much of the media is staffed by liberals and they put a liberal spin on the news. It is only because of FOX news and AM talk radio that conservatives now have a voice.

I find it alarming that thefinalw0rd is so upset that the terrorist with the dirty bomb was caught. Is it his wish that the terrorist had succeeded in his mission?

As far as the trucker, he may be part of a larger terrorist conspiracy. If so then you know that authorities would trying to capture the rest of the terrorist gang.
It may also be possible that it was a really just a lone nutjob calling in a fake bombscare that the media decided was not newsworthy.

Let's read this again. You're the one who posted it.

No, Sixgun, but it must've been your wish for the terrorists to win...because you're supporting every single thing that has lead to their victory...

Why do I say 'victory?' Because they really did win. The objective of terrorism is simple: Induce terror and change a group's way of life in the negative - - and the terrorists certainly did that. Note the economy that, while showing some signs of recovery, has a long way to go. Note the alert levels, causing fear and apprehension throught the citizenery every time its raised. Note how people won't fly as much now. Note the insane checkpoints at the airports. Anthrax scares left people abandoning mail.

Sure, people flew their flags after 9/11, myself included. But most of that patriotism was a shield from the fear that was felt, widespread. For weeks after the attacks, the hallways of my school were completely subdued - no talking but for some hushed murmers, etcetera. Its now more dangerous to speak against the views of the government - you might be branded a terrorist. As Bush said, "You're either 100% with us or against us."

They tore the nation apart in the aftermath because of the war and other such things. I wonder if it will be found that any of this faulty intelligence that the CIA received had Al Qaeda roots? I bet there's a chance. We also turned on allies as a result of the same conflict.

And the majority of the country sat idly by and supported all of this.

The terorists definately succeded in their goals...and the government unwittingly contributed to it. I'm not proud of it, and you shouldn't be either.

In any case, they produce these people and they disappear...and no one is the wiser. How do we really know if any of this is real at all? We don't. If the guy was really going to set off a "dirty bomb," then I'm glad we caught him - - but no one knows either way because the entire matter disappeared.

If its legitimate, then they can go for it...but I'm not convinced that any of it is.