I don't know how you can feel comfortable calling your girlfriend a freak. Or why she wouldn't take offence to it, but hey thats your personal attitudes. As for normal-this has got to be one of the oldest arguments in the hills and I don't think it can really be argued. It's like that whole creationism vs. evolution debate. It depends on your point of view. Homosexuality is normal to homosexuals and has been 'normalized' several times throughout history. I was the rise of the roman catholic church that declared it a sin. I admit this is a little personal for me. My sisters a Lesbian. My best friend for the last 15 years is Gay. Since my sister and I are twins I spent most of teenage years hanging out with her friends and with the gay community. I never even dated a completely heterosexual woman until I met my wife.
Obviously I can't argue this point objectivley.
I can tell you that most of the Gay community, I can only speak locally to me of course, feels uncomfortable with 'pushy' Gay's as well. They tend to be younger Gay's who have'nt exactly found thier place yet-I do think all gays should be treated exactly as thier heterosexual counterparts-not special treatment-just regular treatment. thats just common sense to me.

I disagree,
If someone believes ANYTHING too much they tend to ignore all other points of view, including any new information that may strengthen or weaken thier point. Beliefs and arguments should be able to evolve, anything else is 'blind faith'. this is stagnation. bieng able to accept new ideas that contradict your own and may possibly change your views is not 'wishy-washy' it's called learning.

It's bad when the money is taken to give to people who haven't earned it, and refuse to earn their own. I know it's a small part of the federal budget, but it pisses me off when money is handed over to stupid bitches that keep squeezing out babies with no means to support them.

That's true, and the effects of that can be bad. Sometimes you have to do things that suck because you have to. If a person feels good by not working, and waiting around for their gubbamint check to get by, then I don't care what kind of logic supports that.

1) Normal standards are what holds a culture together.

2) The baseline does change, but it should change very slowly. Then the changes are more likely to be an improvement. When courts a ramming new standards down the throat of society, the culture doesn't have time to adapt naturally, and it causes problems. Have you noticed how mean and dirty political debate has become in the last few years? The distance between "left" and "right" has increased to the point that both sides hate the other.

She would say she's a freak too. She's more conservative than me in some ways.

Have you considered why that is?

Usually right before a society crashes to the ground.

In various cultures throughout history, it has been celebrated, tolerated, or punished by death, for a variety of reasons.

It's difficult for anyone to argue any point objectively. There's nothing wrong with being judgemental. Everyone judges everything.

That is true. I've heard that before from gay people. Unfortunately federal judges usually side with the pushy ones.

It's already gone beyond that. Gays are a protected group. If you murder a gay person, you get extra time for it. In some places, employers can't fire a gay person if they refuse to follow the dress code for the business. If an ugly gay man wants to wear a dress to work, the employer has to deal with it. More is coming along those lines.

where the hell did you get this? I've never heard of something going that far? I know you get extra time for a 'Hate' crime. And with good reason. Most hate crime killing are not just murder, it's torture, degredation, then death. Case in point-Mathew Shepard. But I don't know even a single Queen who would want to wear a dress to work...unless that WAS work. As for a passionate argument. I think that unless you can argue objectivley, without passion then it's not a true, thoughtful debate, just arguing. Thats the point I've tried to make to many so-called conservatives (on this forum I'm sure we can remember them) here. Brow-beating (or and beating for that matter) someone does not change thier opinion, it just makes them defensive. Now, you can still be close to an issue (homosexuality, abortion issues) and still argue them it just takes self restraint.
A little off topic for this thread but there you are

It's starting in parts of California. I can't give you a link because it's been a while since I've seen an article about it. Things that start in California have a way of slowly poisoning the rest of the country.

There shouldn't be any such thing as a "hate crime". Now we're punishing thought. Murder is murder. Assault is assualt. etc. It doesn't matter if the murder or assault is commited because of hate.

It's always argument. We're doing it because it's fun. You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change yours. The only useful thing that happens is that we understand each other better.

I only do that when the person clearly deserves it.

That's what we're doing now, but there's a difference between being civil to your opponent, and actually being open to his ideas.

Most liberals are embarassed by California

True, but there is. 'Hate' crimes are much more insidious than an 'average' murder. added to that the many hate crimes are ignored by the community thier in. Remember that case a few years back where a black man was dragged by chains behind a pickup truck until he was dead? that was done through a town...full of witnesses. Only one of which actually reorted the crime to the local police-who then ignored it for as long as they could. Now granted thats the south. There's a reason why gays congregated to San Fransisco in the 70's. It was a place where they could police themselves. Gay's wore whistles around thier necks so that if you were bieng attacked by gay-bashers you could blow the whistle and all the Gay's within earshot whould come to your aid. This had to be done because before the rights for Gays movement began they were a null-people to society and the law. It would be nice to live in a world where those outside of the mainstream did not have to fight everyday for thier civil liberties, but we don't.

Although I think your opinions should always be open to change I think you made a damn fine point there.

Okay, I think I found what your talking about-
http://www.laborlawyers.com/CM/Impor...opments163.asp

It does'nt refer to Gays nesisarily but to transexuals and transvestites.
Now Transexuals are on thier way to becoming a woman and going through the sex change process-as they go through the process they live and work as a woman. Thats a little different than a little queer guy named 'jasmine' or something showing up to work in a sundress and saying how fabulous he is. Now with transvestites-only 10% of these folks are actually gay (about the percentage as the regular population). I dont know allot about these folks and I personnaly have never known a transvestite (different than a drag queen). Personnally I don't think these folks should get the same special dispensations as someone like a transsexual who has to mentally assimilate to bieng another sex.

Typical bedwetting liberal.

yeah! just jump right in with an insult and no intelligent comment......moron

Hate crimes are NOT worse than the average crime. I'm not sure what, but I think it says something about society when killing someone because you hate them is considered worse than killing someone for the $20 in their wallet.


My opinions are open to change, but only from life experiences, not from a debate on a web forum.

diogenes
Am I going to have to put both of you in opposite corners of the room? Take it to the Bitch Board.

In one sense your right-murder is murder-no matter the reason and the person ends up just as dead. But what about those hate crimes that fall short of murder. The rapeing of a young lesbian because some jocks think she needs a real man. Or vice versa. The big, butch head of the footbal team who force the young freshman to blow him in the locker room on pain of a beating or humiliation. The local gay who lives on a street whose never hurt anybody or really even spoken to his nieghbores has his windows busted in and his car totaled while they spray paint his house. Not to mention the beatings that happen for no reason outside the local gay bar. I've seen each of these happen to friends or aquaintences. You have to admit when a persons sexual orientation, race or creed is at the focal point of a crime, it's a little different than 'meaningless crimes'. these crimes have a meaning, a focus. It's against you and it's personal.

This is why we need dueling to be legal. Oh, you might think I'm joking...

As far as the court is concerned, it shouldn't be different. You've described rape, assault, vandalism, trespassing, harrassment, and destruction of private property. All of which were against the law before the idea of "hate crimes" came up. All of those people can and should press charges.

I can bring up another conservative issue with this topic.

PINK PISTOLS

This is the way gays, and EVERYONE ELSE, should take care of crime.