Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions
Home FAQ
Go Back   Darkforum.com - Dark Stories, Dark Art, Poetry, Photography, Debates and Discussions > Discussions > Debate and Discussion > Politics
Reload this Page Birthright
Politics Discuss Birthright in the Debate and Discussion forums; Birthright is defined as a right, privilege, or possession, such as property, to which one is entitled by birth. In his article "Taking Luck Seriously" Matt Miller suggests ...
Why not Register and remove some of the ads from The Dark Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  (#1) Old
JOEBIALEK is Offline
Registered User
JOEBIALEK is on a distinguished road
 
JOEBIALEK's Avatar
 
Posts: 38
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 6,364
   
Birthright - 06-09-07

Birthright is defined as a right, privilege, or possession, such as property, to which one is entitled by birth. In his article "Taking Luck Seriously" Matt Miller suggests that birthright results in the "inherited package of wealth, health, genes, looks, brains, talents and family." Approximately two-thirds {or more} of all wealth in the United States is inherited by birthright. In a recent study conducted at Ohio State University's Center for Human Resource Research, author Jay Zagorsky stated "Intelligence is not a factor for explaining wealth." Therefore, one may draw the conclusion that most business and political leaders are not intelligent. They did not earn their way into powerful positions but rather were manipulated into them because of birthright. This further begs the question: then why are they in charge? Why is it that our country is not run by the best and brightest? Does the merit system stop when one graduates from school? While intelligence is certainly not the only factor in determining who is most fit to lead our society, it is certainly a better measure than birthright. In over two hundred years the United States has failed at overcoming one of the biggest barriers to a just society. We refuse to find a way to limit the benefits of birthright and therefore make for a fairer {and better managed} society.

"A Decade of Executive Excess,'' the sixth annual survey of executive compensation by the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy, finds the ratio of top executive to factory worker pay has exploded this decade from 42 to 1 in 1980 to 419 to 1 last year. Why are we paying these people so much more if they don't have the intelligence and will to act in our best interest? What tangible proof is there that top executives contribute that much more to the successful attainment of corporate goals? Why aren't these executives {Enron} given longer prison terms than car thieves? If intelligence determined corporate leadership rather than birthright, the compensation ratio would be much lower because smart leaders would recognize it as the right thing to do whereas those that are there by birthright simply don't know any better {or care}. It is this ignorance perpetuated by birthright that is leading this country to collapse. Perhaps someday our society will be lead by intelligent people who see their own best interest as having promoted society's best interest.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#2) Old
Wicked Lady is Offline
THE MORAL VOICE
Forum Guide Mentor
Wicked Lady is on a distinguished road
 
Wicked Lady's Avatar
 
Posts: 15,758
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Zodiac Sign: Cancer
Rating: 4 Votes / 4.00 Average
Credits: 283,000
   
06-09-07

I don't see how you draw the conclusion that because you don't have to have intelligence for wealth. Just because it doesn't explain how you got it doesn't mean you don't have it. That's like saying "Going to Africa is not a factor for explaining the flu." So does that mean that everyone that went to Africa will never get the flu? Or if you have gone to Africa you'll get the flu? It just means you don't have to be smart to inherit or make money.


In Memory of the Busby Babes :

February 6, 1958
Gone but never forgotten
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#3) Old
Synikul is Offline
fucking jackass
Synikul is on a distinguished road
 
Synikul's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,423
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: in the past
Zodiac Sign: Libra
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 116,977
   
06-10-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOEBIALEK View Post
In over two hundred years the United States has failed at overcoming one of the biggest barriers to a just society. We refuse to find a way to limit the benefits of birthright and therefore make for a fairer {and better managed} society.
I'm more interested in personal freedom than justice and good management. Are you saying that it's wrong of me, in a class-conscious frame of mind, to want to pass my wealth to my children, and use whatever status I have to help them get a good start in life?
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#4) Old
Iron's Rite is Offline
United States of Moronica
Iron's Rite is on a distinguished road
 
Iron's Rite's Avatar
 
Posts: 12,454
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: "The forest folded it's branches around me, something passed by and I went into a dream." -Opeth
Zodiac Sign: Sagittarius
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 252,861
   
06-10-07

For better or worse, seeing the Privilege of Birthright trampled is basically exactly why everyone is applauding Paris Hilton being forced to do Jail Time.


de vagorum ordine dico vobis iura
fatue fatue
quid prodest tibi laborare
[hildegard von bingen - ordo virtutum]
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#5) Old
Synikul is Offline
fucking jackass
Synikul is on a distinguished road
 
Synikul's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,423
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: in the past
Zodiac Sign: Libra
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 116,977
   
06-10-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron's Rite View Post
For better or worse, seeing the Privilege of Birthright trampled is basically exactly why everyone is applauding Paris Hilton being forced to do Jail Time.
That's not the privilege of birthright, it's the privilege of money and fame.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#6) Old
Dark Messiah is Offline
Half-Wit Intellectual
Dark Messiah is on a distinguished road
 
Dark Messiah's Avatar
 
Posts: 13,128
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Beautiful Sona-nyl
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 258,469
   
06-12-07

It is incorrect to say that no progress has been made in fixing this system. There is a process whereby we take a large chunk of the money inherited by the wealthy, made by the immoral business practices of their ancestors, and redistribute it via goods and services to those who are descended from the exploited and do not have such opportunity; it is called "taxation". The primary return given to the ancestors of the exploited is in free education. Now, granted, this isn't worth nearly as much as it should be, since the educational system sucks. However, if the poor want a better educational system, they should probably cut down on their time spent watching NASCAR and Pimp My Ride and fucking do something about it instead of waiting for the rich to do it for them, because the rich are quite content sipping martinis and pissing away daddy's fortune in their mansions.

Basically, I blame everybody.


When people talk of the freedom of writing, speaking or thinking I cannot choose but laugh. No such thing ever existed. No such thing now exists; but I hope it will exist. But it must be hundreds of years after you and I shall write and speak no more.

- John Adams
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#7) Old
Billy the Kidd is Offline
So what?
Forum Guide Mentor
Billy the Kidd will become famous soon enough
 
Billy the Kidd's Avatar
 
Posts: 18,733
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Connecticut
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: 2 Votes / 1.00 Average
Credits: 492,577
   
06-12-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
It is incorrect to say that no progress has been made in fixing this system. There is a process whereby we take a large chunk of the money inherited by the wealthy, made by the immoral business practices of their ancestors, and redistribute it via goods and services to those who are descended from the exploited and do not have such opportunity; it is called "taxation". The primary return given to the ancestors of the exploited is in free education. Now, granted, this isn't worth nearly as much as it should be, since the educational system sucks. However, if the poor want a better educational system, they should probably cut down on their time spent watching NASCAR and Pimp My Ride and fucking do something about it instead of waiting for the rich to do it for them, because the rich are quite content sipping martinis and pissing away daddy's fortune in their mansions.

Basically, I blame everybody.
Not every millionaire inherited their wealth.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#8) Old
Wicked Lady is Offline
THE MORAL VOICE
Forum Guide Mentor
Wicked Lady is on a distinguished road
 
Wicked Lady's Avatar
 
Posts: 15,758
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Zodiac Sign: Cancer
Rating: 4 Votes / 4.00 Average
Credits: 283,000
   
06-12-07

And not all money was made by immoral business practices.


In Memory of the Busby Babes :

February 6, 1958
Gone but never forgotten
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#9) Old
Synikul is Offline
fucking jackass
Synikul is on a distinguished road
 
Synikul's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,423
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: in the past
Zodiac Sign: Libra
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 116,977
   
06-12-07

And I think the inheritance tax should be abolished. That money will be taxed normally when it becomes part of the assets of the inheritee. That's one of the things that's killing family farms and small business in America.

The farmer's land is worth 6 to 8 figures, depending on its proximity to a large city, but it only produces a middle-class income, which slowly dwindles from one generation to the next as land has to be sold off to pay the death tax.

Let's throw BIG OIL into the mix here. The average gas station with convenience store is a franchised multi-million dollar property, but it produces ONE middle class income for the owner, and a few low class incomes for the employees. When the owner dies, it will likely be sold off to pay the death tax on the property value alone.

But I suppose you could set limits on the money involved, which we do, that opens up the criticism of hypocrisy. If we're for inheritance for the poor and middle-class, why not for the rich and successful?
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#10) Old
Pyrric Dicktory is Offline
no quarter, boys
Pyrric Dicktory is on a distinguished road
 
Pyrric Dicktory's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,671
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Mar 2001
Zodiac Sign: Pisces
Rating: 1 Votes / 4.00 Average
Credits: 83,066
   
06-12-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOEBIALEK View Post
Birthright is defined as a right, privilege, or possession, such as property, to which one is entitled by birth. In his article "Taking Luck Seriously" Matt Miller suggests that birthright results in the "inherited package of wealth, health, genes, looks, brains, talents and family." Approximately two-thirds {or more} of all wealth in the United States is inherited by birthright. In a recent study conducted at Ohio State University's Center for Human Resource Research, author Jay Zagorsky stated "Intelligence is not a factor for explaining wealth." Therefore, one may draw the conclusion that most business and political leaders are not intelligent. They did not earn their way into powerful positions but rather were manipulated into them because of birthright. This further begs the question: then why are they in charge? Why is it that our country is not run by the best and brightest? Does the merit system stop when one graduates from school? While intelligence is certainly not the only factor in determining who is most fit to lead our society, it is certainly a better measure than birthright. In over two hundred years the United States has failed at overcoming one of the biggest barriers to a just society. We refuse to find a way to limit the benefits of birthright and therefore make for a fairer {and better managed} society.
yeah, i know


take em all, take em all, put our back against a wall and shoot em, toe to toe, watch em fall, come on boys take em all.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#11) Old
Dark Messiah is Offline
Half-Wit Intellectual
Dark Messiah is on a distinguished road
 
Dark Messiah's Avatar
 
Posts: 13,128
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Beautiful Sona-nyl
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 258,469
   
06-18-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy the Kidd View Post
Not every millionaire inherited their wealth.
Yes, this is true. This is why I would rather have a lower income tax on the rich and a higher inheritance tax. Actually, ideally I'd like to just about abolish inheritance (over a certain cap), but I realize how incredibly impractical it would be to implement.


When people talk of the freedom of writing, speaking or thinking I cannot choose but laugh. No such thing ever existed. No such thing now exists; but I hope it will exist. But it must be hundreds of years after you and I shall write and speak no more.

- John Adams
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#12) Old
thefr0g is Offline
Ooglemagthorpe
thefr0g is on a distinguished road
 
thefr0g's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,603
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Sep 2000
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 96,521
   
06-18-07

Thats ridiculous DM. You spend your life amassing a fortune, you should have the right to decide who gets it when you're gone.


  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#13) Old
Dark Messiah is Offline
Half-Wit Intellectual
Dark Messiah is on a distinguished road
 
Dark Messiah's Avatar
 
Posts: 13,128
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Beautiful Sona-nyl
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 258,469
   
06-18-07

You're ignoring the other half of the equation, which is where certain human beings are born into poverty, and others, through no effort or worth of their own, are born into great wealth. This is profoundly uncapitalistic.


When people talk of the freedom of writing, speaking or thinking I cannot choose but laugh. No such thing ever existed. No such thing now exists; but I hope it will exist. But it must be hundreds of years after you and I shall write and speak no more.

- John Adams
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#14) Old
thefr0g is Offline
Ooglemagthorpe
thefr0g is on a distinguished road
 
thefr0g's Avatar
 
Posts: 5,603
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Sep 2000
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 96,521
   
06-18-07

I dont give a shit. I should have the right to secure the happiness and comfort of my children.


  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#15) Old
Synikul is Offline
fucking jackass
Synikul is on a distinguished road
 
Synikul's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,423
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: in the past
Zodiac Sign: Libra
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 116,977
   
06-18-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
You're ignoring the other half of the equation, which is where certain human beings are born into poverty, and others, through no effort or worth of their own, are born into great wealth. This is profoundly uncapitalistic.
You're profoundly full of shit.

For starters, we're talking about America, right? This might be tough for you to understand, but THERE IS NO POVERTY IN AMERICA! It's been eliminated entirely, and if you don't think I'm right, you need to travel the world a bit. I've seen some godawful poverty-stricken third world shitholes, and I have no patience for spoiled brat Americans bitching about their pathetic little lives. In America, "poverty" is when you only own one TV, your car is over 5 years old, and some gubbamint program buys your food and pays your rent.

You also assume equality as the basis for capitalism, which is absurd on it's face, and your solution is to spread the misery equally. You've taken parents out of the equation entirely, it's like you're using an extreme form of individualism that doesn't even take family relationships into account. If a child is pissed off about being "poor"(see above), they should direct that anger at their parents for being lazy, or making bad decisions with their money.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#16) Old
Pyrric Dicktory is Offline
no quarter, boys
Pyrric Dicktory is on a distinguished road
 
Pyrric Dicktory's Avatar
 
Posts: 7,671
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Mar 2001
Zodiac Sign: Pisces
Rating: 1 Votes / 4.00 Average
Credits: 83,066
   
06-19-07

there's no poverty in america? ok...


take em all, take em all, put our back against a wall and shoot em, toe to toe, watch em fall, come on boys take em all.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#17) Old
Billy the Kidd is Offline
So what?
Forum Guide Mentor
Billy the Kidd will become famous soon enough
 
Billy the Kidd's Avatar
 
Posts: 18,733
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Connecticut
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: 2 Votes / 1.00 Average
Credits: 492,577
   
06-19-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
Yes, this is true. This is why I would rather have a lower income tax on the rich and a higher inheritance tax. Actually, ideally I'd like to just about abolish inheritance (over a certain cap), but I realize how incredibly impractical it would be to implement.
Pretty absurd IMO, you want to tax money thats already been taxed. The point of making millions is to pass it off to your family after you die. Not to tax it so a bunch of minorities get it through welfare.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#18) Old
Billy the Kidd is Offline
So what?
Forum Guide Mentor
Billy the Kidd will become famous soon enough
 
Billy the Kidd's Avatar
 
Posts: 18,733
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Connecticut
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: 2 Votes / 1.00 Average
Credits: 492,577
   
06-19-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Messiah View Post
You're ignoring the other half of the equation, which is where certain human beings are born into poverty, and others, through no effort or worth of their own, are born into great wealth. This is profoundly uncapitalistic.
No it isnt uncapitolistic. People can spend their wealth the way they want to. If that means passing it on to someone who didnt work for it, then thats thier business. The money was built through someone elses capitalist efforts. This smacks of wealth/class envy by the way.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#19) Old
Billy the Kidd is Offline
So what?
Forum Guide Mentor
Billy the Kidd will become famous soon enough
 
Billy the Kidd's Avatar
 
Posts: 18,733
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Connecticut
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: 2 Votes / 1.00 Average
Credits: 492,577
   
06-19-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrric Dicktory View Post
there's no poverty in america? ok...
Well there really isn't. At least not the hungry kind of poverty.
  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Reddit!
Reply With Quote
  (#20) Old
Dark Messiah is Offline
Half-Wit Intellectual
Dark Messiah is on a distinguished road
 
Dark Messiah's Avatar
 
Posts: 13,128
Gallery: 0
Comments: 0
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Beautiful Sona-nyl
Zodiac Sign: Capricorn
Rating: Not Rated
Credits: 258,469
   
06-19-07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synikul View Post
For starters, we're talking about America, right? This might be tough for you to understand, but THERE IS NO POVERTY IN AMERICA! It's been eliminated entirely, and if you don't think I'm right, you need to travel the world a bit. I've seen some godawful poverty-stricken third world shitholes, and I have no patience for spoiled brat Americans bitching about their pathetic little lives. In America, "poverty" is when you only own one TV, your car is over 5 years old, and some gubbamint program buys your food and pays your rent.
Winter is warmer in Virginia than in New York, but you still shouldn't go jogging outside in the middle of January in short-shorts and a wife-beater. Poverty is milder in America, but it still exists. Your argument attempts to redefine the term to some arbitrary meaning made up by you, and is therefore irrelevant.

Quote: