Everything that happened was allegedly to have happened.
Everything could have not happened.

Thus your statement of "But you said allegedly" amounts to...nothing.

Somebody accused me of it, and it's true. I really don't care what happened. It's a war. Our guys decided he needed to be shot. I trust them.

What about Abu Ghraib? Our soldiers are human too, for better or worse.

and why i said i can agree with that, rather than an absolute agreement...

stop trying to make me a villian because i'm willing to give american soldiers the benefit of a doubt and not take a family's cry of "but we were told he stopped" as being the truth. It still stands that none of them were there...

Trying to make you a villain?
Jordyn, while Peter might be attempting to do that(although I have seen no evidence of that), I have done nothing of the sort.
I have dealt with this "Debate" logically and carefully, making certain to avoid insulting anyone(Including Synikul, my insulting punching bag).

The completely true facts are these:
All of what we know of this derives from eyewitnesses.
All of those eyewitnesses who have come forward agree.

The soldiers at Abu Ghraib are being punished appropriately. They shouldn't be punished for some of the things that happened. I don't have a problem with making them walk around naked, standing on the stool with the wires, or threatening them with dogs. The naked pyramid, and the anal glowstick were bad though.

Yeah I'm sure they just woulda learned their lesson with the naked walk-around....

i'm sorry, it's flustering, you of all people don't deserve that...

how many eye witnesses are there?

the torture i don't agree with, however i do understand how some may see that degradation is a way to get what ever information the government wanted...it wasn't to punish them, but to stress them to the point they'd spill the beans....i think metallica would have been torturous enough...

The number is not given.
Nor are names given.
Which both make sense.

On top of that, all you need is one eyewitness in order for facts to be possibly given.
Sadly people don't understand that some people prefer to tell the truth, in real life, and when they know that lying will not benefit them.

Case in point: I put in an application at one place. I put down 7am-7pm, weekdays for my days. I put down I could work overtime if I was forewarned about it.
I waited.
No calls.
I went and talked with the person, since of course I knew they were looking for help.
They had been looking for people to work weekends within specific hour guidelines. I informed them that I could, and that I could work holidays(The application does not inquire about holidays at all).

Department of Labor, who are assisting me, called them a week ago, to talk about TEAP, a program that is incentive to hire people that the DoL are helping.
Lo and behold, the person I talked with(Who is basically the only manager) said they did not remember talking to me. That my application listed 11am-7pm and that I would not work holidays.
I called the manager after learning of this and again they responded in that manner, and said there were no openings(Although my one cousin said that there were openings, and the manager admitted that they were planning to interview people).

I brewed. Pissed, of course, because there was much bullshitting occuring.
I then went down there, and asked if I could see my application. I gave no name. Somehow, this person who recalled never seeing me or talking to me, managed to know my name and gave it to me, and the application states on it 7am-7pm and nothing about holidays.


However, the Dept. of Labor is believing the manager over me.
Thus, eyewitnesses can be right and some people are too prejudiced or idiotic to believe the truth.
That's why even a shady eyewitness should be given benefit of the doubt, or partial believability.

To Hell with them anyway. All that is, is a convenient excuse to torture somebody. How information is processed is more important then how information is gathered and information gathered from someone who has been tortured is invariably going to be horrendously ambiguous.

same thing

anything's possible...

it's been like that since...well...when did the world become civilized?

Yeah, Like I keep saying we are all human. I've been thinking about this though and while I don't hate the people fighting over there or want them to die; I do blame them on some level. Not so much for their conduct in the war but for following along and allowing themselves to be led into going there in the first place.

it's not like soldiers really have much of a choice...i suppose they could just not show up, be branded deserters and spend most of their life in prison or hiding somewhere out of the united states...but who would support their families?

Just imagine how things would be different if they had all refused to fight in this War? It's not that I blame them for being soldiers. I blame them for being human; For being like everyone else that lets themself be grossely manipulated into following along and participating in something incredibly stupid. Thus I don't hate them, because if I hated them for this or wanted them to die I'd also have to wish that upon all of humanity. My species frustrates the unholy shit out of me nearly to the point of Misanthropism for the same reason but I can't hate them. If I do I'm the same as people who do that. Pretty pompous of me huh?

They all had a choice, and they chose to enlist in the military. After that, you don't get to choose anymore, and they knew that going in.

to some people, there isn't much of a choice.

i was at the mall (the only one in town) the other day and saw something interesting. on my way to the bookstore, i pass the dollar store. standing just inside the doors to that store were two marine recruiters...

now tell me, what does that say about military recruitment? that they want thrifty shoppers? my gut instinct tells me something else. to many of our nations poor, enlistment can be the only way out of the downward spiral of poverty. do they have a choice? yes. they have the choice of probably spending the rest of their lives on the dole or at minimum wage jobs, barely scraping by... or going into harm's way and getting paid a percentile more money with free room and board.

its a tough choice, a hard choice... no doubt, not much of a choice for some.