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Iron's Rite · **America 2004 is Germany 1930. -** 12-07-04

Not just mindless cries and accusations of facism, this thorough and lengthy essay puts together some frightening and logical arguments in spite of it's bias.

Quote:

Milton Mayer's book, They Thought They Were Free, concerns Germans still living after World War II who had been members of the Nazi Party. Mayer came to know them and studied their lives and attitudes.
"As we know Nazism, it was a naked, total tyranny which degraded its adherents and enslaved its opponents and adherents alike; terrorism and terror in daily life, private and public; brute personal and mob injustice at every level of association . . .

"These nine ordinary Germans [who lived in Nazi Germany] knew it otherwise, and they still know it otherwise.

"An autocracy? [they say] Yes, of course . . . But a tyranny, as you Americans use the term? Nonsense."

How could Germans living under Hitler's National Socialism not have seen what it was? How did their lack of social and personal awareness make them blind to their reality?

How could Americans now possibly be living under a creeping dictatorship and not know it? And how could we not only not see a police state condition but actually think we're living in complete freedom?
Because most of us don't WANT to know what's going on. We've lost the ability to think critically about political, economic, and social dangers confronting us.
If we have a job--as most people did in Nazi Germany--if the political-economic system seems stable--as it does in America--then that's all we want to know.

"When [modern man] is completely infantile ... he does not need and does not have an understanding of the outer world. It exists for him merely as gratification or denial."

Walter Lippmann (1889-1973 )

To the Germans in Mayer's study, each occasion of Nazi violence was worse than the last, but only a little worse. So they waited for the one shocking event, thinking that they would join with others if or when it happened. But as the violence escalated, no one rose up to condemn the concentration camps and general oppression. No one wanted to act alone, and when a mass uprising failed to occur, the common people just let events take their course. They progressively lost the ability to understand the horror of Nazism and the will to oppose it.

Similarly, we don't see the growing fascism in America and the world because we don't want to see it and because it happens somewhat gradually, which makes it almost imperceptible to those who don't think critically. Everything in your society--Nazi Germany or twenty-first century America--seems so ordinary. "

Quote:

Pastor Niemoller, a German clergyman under the Nazi regime, later confessed that when the Nazis attacked opposing groups such as the Communists, he was a little uneasy. But, he said, after all, he was not a communist, so he did nothing. When the Nazis began to attack the Jews he was even more uneasy, but he still did nothing. Then they attacked the Church, and because he was a clergyman he tried to do something, but it was too late.

We in the modern world are in exactly the same situation as the German people in the early days of Nazi totalitarianism. Daily, staring us in the face, is the unmistakable evidence of brutality, economic oppression, fear-ridden conformity, pleasure-deadened mindlessness, ignorant know-it-allness, and unashamed hatred of the "different," the "unpopular," the momentary devil-enemy.

But people totally blinded by their pursuit of pleasure or engrossed in destroying some enemy (the anti-abortionists killing their enemies, U.S. leaders killing tens of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American soldiers) don't see the crises in the modern world.

The general intellectual incompetence of Americans at present leads directly to a blindness to our current catastrophic situation. Without the learned ability to make decisive distinctions, people cannot discriminate between, for example, "economic downturn" and depression, or between "change of leaders through free elections" and coup d'etat through monied interests buying and selling presidents and congresspersons. Our minds are so undeveloped that we lack the capacity to discriminate between the essentials and the changing, superficial forms.

"There couldn't be a police state in the U.S.," says Joe American, "because we don't see men in uniforms with swastikas on their armbands goose-stepping down our streets! "

"We can't be losing our freedoms," says Jane American, because I didn't see anything about it in the New York Times and Tom Brokaw said nothing about it on the evening news."

We like to delude ourselves that the 1930s German citizen was some special case. 2 But Nazism didn't arise because a few maniacs somehow got into power and did something unique to the German people's minds. Those myths have been exploded once and for all by our more recent understanding that those same tactics have been used and are being used to enslave the minds of people in many different societies.

The full essay.

John Preston · 12-08-04

too long, brain hurt.

Synikul · 12-08-04

The part that is quoted was enough for me to decide the whole essay is probably bullshit.

Iron's Rite · 12-10-04

. . . Wow . . . I feel so inspired . . . Please Synikul, explain why you think it's bullshit, I'm asking you on friendly terms with the intent of not letting this thread completely bomb.

Synikul · 12-10-04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denalay

. . . Wow . . . I feel so inspired . . . Please Synikul, explain why you think it's bullshit, I'm asking you on friendly terms with the intent of not letting this thread completely bomb.

The essay is written by an ignorant person, about someone else's "study". The way the writer praises the study shows his/her ignorance. The things about modern America that correspond to pre-Nazi Germany are more cultural than economic.

You should read Mein Kampf. Everybody should read Mein Kampf. I read it several years ago after the liberal media compared Saddam Hussein, Slobodon Milosevic, Ronald Reagan, and Pat Buchanan to Hitler. Too many people go to the Hitler well too often without knowing what it's really all about.

The person who did the "study" isn't ignorant, but is spinning things to support an opinion that is wrong. The writer of the essay is an ignorant idiot who is lapping it up because it supports his own ignorant viewpoint.

Iron's Rite · 12-10-04

Do you think that incidences of oppression and populations turning to facism have nothing in common with one another then? Obviously different circumstances are involved but there must be a similar proccess behind it, don't you think?

Synikul · 12-11-04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denalay

Do you think that incidences of oppression and populations turning to facism have nothing in common with one another then? Obviously different circumstances are involved but there must be a similar proccess behind it, don't you think?

America is NOT turning to facism.

Quote:

We in the modern world are in exactly the same situation as the German people in the early days of Nazi totalitarianism. Daily, staring us in the face, is the unmistakable evidence of brutality, economic oppression, fear-ridden conformity, pleasure-deadened mindlessness, ignorant know-it-allness, and unashamed hatred of the "different," the "unpopular," the momentary devil-enemy.

This is a fantasy written by someone who must spend all their time huddled under their bed, and probably needs to see a psychiatrist.

Quote:

But people totally blinded by their pursuit of pleasure or engrossed in destroying some enemy (the anti-abortionists killing their enemies, U.S. leaders killing tens of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American soldiers) don't see the crises in the modern world.

Gee, I wonder which end of the ideological spectrum this writer comes from. The problem is that this writer sees the other end of the spectrum as oppressive. I'm 37, I've lived long enough to see the leadership of America go from right to left, and back again a few times. I never felt oppressed. Sooner or later, it's going to swing back to the left. If Kerry had won the election, I'd have been mildly pissed about it, but I wouldn't be spewing this kind of psychobabble.

Quote:

The general intellectual incompetence of Americans at present leads directly to a blindness to our current catastrophic situation. Without the learned ability to make decisive distinctions, people cannot discriminate between, for example, "economic downturn" and depression, or between "change of leaders through free elections" and coup d'etat through monied interests buying and selling presidents and congresspersons. Our minds are so undeveloped that we lack the capacity to discriminate between the essentials and the changing, superficial forms.

The writer is describing himself with this paragraph. This is a great example of mental incompetance cloaked in intelectualism. He actually thinks we're in a depression. All the little recessions we've had in the last 50 years, including the most recent one, don't even come close, not even in the ballpark of the '29 crash.

All the money he thinks is "buying presidents" is given to them so they can buy advertising so voters know who they are. He calls it tyranny just because the Libertarians and the Greens aren't mainstream enough to have a chance of winning.

I see the same kind of paranoia in this writer that I saw on Stormfront. This joker is about two steps away from blaming it all on jews and becoming a Nazi himself.

Iron's Rite · 12-11-04

I understand what you mean and I can even agree with it to a point. A lot of people like to exaggerate circumstances in order to accentuate their points. However, my point is that just as it points out in the essay: Facism is a subversive movement and influence, it has to be because if the populace that the movement intended to bring under it's influence became aware of it the movement, it would be exposed and stopped. Therefore, Facism is not something that can happen abruptly in a sudden, violent coup. (Unless the force attempting to bring the nation to a facist state has an army at it's disposal that outnumbers the citizenry) Hitler moved fast but even he still needed to condition people to be blind to Facist influence and to keep them thinking that any trespasses of their rights were a sacrifice that was necessary in order to keep the populace safe.

Synikul · 12-11-04

Is this about The Patriot Act?

Iron's Rite · 12-11-04

I'm just stateing that building a Facist state is a process and that I am concerned that America may be in the beggining of that process.

Synikul · 12-12-04

I don't see it.

Jordyn · 12-12-04

i wouldn't quite compare it to hitlers germany...too many people are more than willing to catch bush on his...attempts at world domination(however frightengly real i do believe that may be one of his goals). i'd think the commie scare of hoover's era...when anyone who didn't agree with his politics were accused of being commies, thrown in jail and ruined by blackballing...that is what happens when the security agencies get too much power and people are left in the dark, misguided or propagandanized into apathy.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAhooverE.htm

Arty · 12-13-04

This reminds me of an article I read once about newspaper headlines in the form of questions to which the answer is no.

For example:

'Is Tony Blair the most evil man in Britain?' No.
'Will the Millennium bug cripple western civilisation?' No.
'Is America turning into a fascist state?' No.

Simple.

Being illiberal (by which I mean having no respect for civil liberties) doesn't make you a fascist, or the equivalent. Taking one step in that direction does not mean that you will take all the other steps. This is the fallacious 'slippery slope' argument so beloved of hard-line conservatives.

Armand · 12-19-04

...fascism was in the past and it'll stay there...

Nivvie · 12-19-04

Oww, you're so cute. I hope you never lose such optimism, blind that it is.

Armand · 12-19-04

...chill Rudolph...I know what I'm talking about...

Nivvie · 12-19-04

I also know that fascist politians are being elected in this country (UK) RIGHT NOW!!!
The may call themselves nationalsit and right wing, but they're fascists, they want all minorities removed from the country.

Armand · 12-19-04

...this is good...I wanna see the UK turn fascist...boy oh boy!...

Nivvie · 12-19-04

Where are you, Romania?
Don't make me come over there and slap you.