Although none of that has really been proven one could make assumptions that yes he was doing so. Playing devils advocate here one could also assume that the real basis of this war was to entrench ourselves in an area where we did not have access too before hand.

Either way the Bush Administration went about this entire war the wrong way. They should have stayed the course in Afghanistan first and before even contemplating going into Iraq we should have stabilized the Afghan nation. This would have meant we could direct the entirety of our forces toward Iraq instead of fighting a two prong war almost by ourselves as we are doing right now.

Even though I dislike replying to ANY post of yours due to your tendency to foam at the mouth when replying to any post of mine I felt that I should at the very least point out that I in no way suggested we did not have a vested interest in ousting him, merely that the reasons Bush enunciated for doing so were WRONG!! I hope you can understand that without being blinded by your prejudice against me.

Patriot Act. Willful invasion of a country based on faulty intelligence. Etc etc etc.

Again what part of that is worthy of an "ummmm.... what?"

You do understand the ramifications of the Patriot Act and that if extended or brought to the table indefinitely it could lead easily down the road to a complete loss of those freedoms we do have.

I would tend to agree with this its classic military blunder see germany japan most of the fall factor in most imperlism nations argued against by Sun Tzu given the history of both fronts we were woefully undermanned and under armored to fight a two front war. On the other hand the timing from an international relations stand point wasnt so bad.

As far as your invading ourselves idea its done every day we have a police force no the shaky line of freedoms we all mostly enjoy come with some sort of price even in our own nation with oppurtunity comes threats

Yes, The Patriot Act has made it so the United States Military can use its force against its own people AND made it so the Government through various entities may invade your privacy regardless of suspicion or evidence.

It is a military blunder. One which Bush orchestrated against many of his Military advisors suggestions.
By now we could be mopping up in Afghanistan and placed the entire force of our military might against Iraq as well as had more time to gain more evidence against Saddam and his regime. We would have the entire world behind us at that point instead of many countries leaving Iraq and pretty much leaving us alone to fight this war.

That prejudice would not exist if you weren't so fond of saying retarded shit.

We've pretty much won in afghanistan by the way. There are still pockets of resistance now and again, but from what I've heard from first hand accounts the hearts and minds of the people are mostly won over. Nobody wants to lose their cell phones and internet.

And i realize our reasons for going into Iraq are sketchy at best, but jesus fucking christ can we stop whipping the dead horse and just muster up some real support to finish the fucking job. Doesn't matter why we did it, we're doing it, now we have only 2 options: Win or Lose. I don't see why so many people seem to want to lose just so they can grin smugly ( ) and say "I told you so". Or why every "I support our troops" statement has to end with "but...."

I can't understand why anyone would want our troops to pull out now. That would instantly remove all meaning to the suffering of the troops and families of troops who have been either hurt, badly injured or killed in the conflict.

They're there to do a job and i respect them monumentally for that. Win is the only option.

In your opinion. Looks like you were able to overlook it this time.

The Taliban still has large pockets as do several terrorist organizations. Nor have we been able to catch up to good old Bin Laden. The Taliban can lead pockets of resistance from the Kush mountains for generations if they want to. If we were able to use the entirety of our forces we could cleanse those mountains in a few years. Instead we are fighting a stalemate on two fronts.

I wish we would finish the job. Realistically it will now take many more years with a huge international presence in order to win any sort of ground in a war on terrorism. If ever. The Irish and British succeeded in resolving a huge conflict which involved Irish Terrorism but only after 30 years of great brutality. Of course the English and the Irish have more in common than not unlike western mentality and middle eastern mentality.

It does matter why we did it. If it did not matter we would repeat the same stupidity over and over again. We must delegate more accountability of action toward our government. Those responsible for the blunders and false intelligence should be held accountable for their actions.

*facepalm*

The conflict you're talking about was between the Catholic Irish and the Protestant Irish, you clueless bastard. God. You know, there's just no excuse for being this ignorant on the internet. You could google or wiki that shit if you don't know it.

Nobody knew that the info on Saddam was bad. You know why? Because we now know that he was making every effort to convince the World he secretly had weapons of mass destruction, because he thought (wrongly) that this would dissuade them from attacking him (although not a bad gambit- look at how we've backed off of North Korea). Retrospect is 20/20, but no one at the time looked at the info and said, "Aha, there's some holes here", because the threat of a fucking madman with smallpox clouds was hanging over their head.

And welcome to reality, we're winning in Iraq. It could theoretically backslide, but there's no reason that an international presence is needed. For one thing, the UN Peacekeepers have a far worse track record on human rights than our own troops, so that'd only upset the situation. And the last thing any Iraqi with a knowledge of history wants is Turkish or British troops occupying Baghdad.

It had dick all to do with religion. It was complete politics. A self-governed Ireland or a United Kingdom Ireland. What kind of crack have you been smoking. That religious bullshit was civilian and put down by the British police forces but the war for Irish independence was fought for many years against British invasion forces. I am sure you have heard of the IRA or do they not teach you dick in whatever claptrap hole you went to school at

Before you froth at the mouth about the whole Protestant and Catholic bullshit and how I am completely wrong please remember that first and foremost the terrorist actions have always been against foreign invaders regardless of religious affiliations.
A British Catholic would have as poor a welcome as a british protestant. It is creed not religion, politics, freedom from british rule, and the eventual banishing of all british colonists. Yes there have been civilian clashes due to religion which cloud the real story and allow british authorities to paint both Irish Political Parties as terrorists who harm each other more often than not.
That they are political parties is proven by demonstrating the names of both, The Republicans, and The Loyalists. Both want an Ireland ruled by Irish and left alone by Britain.


I am sure you also think that the terrorism occurred on the Irish side against other Irish people
One need only look back in history to find that the British have terrorized the Irish for centuries. Culminating in the breeding(literally) of hatred in Ireland.

In recent history (a 30 year period or so) a United Ireland has been an impossibility due to Britain manipulating hatred between the religious groups. This benefits a United Kingdom because while the two sides fight it will remain a UK Ireland.

I really don't know what to say. Not to be an arsehole, I don't know but ... are you Irish Dyshade? or British? Or of either heritage?

Maybe you are, or have done what i'm about to say, but i'd like to say it anyway, for the benefit of everyone.

Have you met and talked with BOTH catholic and protestant Irish and British? Members of or supporters of the IRA, people who have grown up in the conflict, ran from bombs and been caught up in bombings by the IRA? Have you been in a London train station when a bomb has gone off in a rubbish bin placed by the IRA? Have you been in a hospital in London while police chased an IRA operative who planted bombs outside a car and sought refuge in a children's ward that you were asleep in a bed in?

In the 90s I had been caught up in terrorist activities by the IRA on more occasions than I can count.

I have spoken with people involved, and alot of the members of the IRA and it's supporters DO have religious motives. There is one hell of a battle going on between the Irish in ireland, not just with the British. Some irish DO want to live under British rule, in both northern and the ROI, but of course, don't want to have to up and move themselves or their entire families. Some streets you can't walk down unless you can prove you are a catholic from a catholic family. Pubs and clubs the same.

You cannot blame this all on the British. I have met Irish adults and young persons alike brought up to hate the British. Brought up as devout catholics who despise and shun and scream and jeer and sing anti British songs and are extremely anti protestant. If you aren't one of them and don't speak the language you are scum. I have NEVER met a Brit who has done the equivalent. EVER. There are riots in the streets and fights in Belfast so much that so many people just drown it all out. I've been told sometimes there are no British involved at all.

I have never met a British person who looks on the conflict as nothing but stupid. Many of the Irish i have met, don't like the conflict, some do, and surprisingly enough, they are Catholic Irish.

I do NOT have anything against the Irish. At all. I understand the confusion, the want for independance or the want to be part of the United Kingdom, but I cannot abide the terrorism. The bombings. Explosives, car bombs, pipe bombs, even Nail bombs in rubbish bins inside tube stations. At bus stops. Outside CHILDREN'S HOSPITALS. The hate mongering. The riots and the fights. I'm glad that arms have apparently been laid to rest, but the fighting still goes on.

There IS an extremely high amount of religious intolerance involved in the battle. You cannot say that there isn't. To do so is completely wrong, and a lie. I know there is, first hand. If any person that is part of any organisation or faction in any conflict is involved with any kind of religious motive, even as a sub motive, then it's there. And believe me... There are many of those people in this conflict, and many with it as their main motive.

I do not doubt that religion has some basis, the lines have been blurred for many years. But in truth the parties involved are political in nature. You could say that instead of The United States invading Iraq it was Western Religion/Catholicism/Christianity invading Iraq and now the war is between Christianity and Islamic beliefs. It is not but you can easily say that because the sides both have beliefs which differ and have fed into the fires of the present war. Yet it is intrinsically a political war.
There are many sides to the terrorist actions in Ireland and Great Britain, you could paint it over with religion but that does not strike at the heart of the problem which stems from idealism and the pursuit of a free Irish Republic. Not religion.

Yes Tozzy I am half Irish and descended from Irish natives who fled British persecution in the early 18th century. I do not place blame presently upon anyone, but the past speaks for itself.
The British Loyalists were British natives granted lands, properties, and other spoils in order to interbreed and make it easier to control the native Irish population. Those Brits are now native Irish Protestants several generations later and such is born and bred a conflict that still rages even though cease fires have been acknowledged.

I do not condone terrorism. I think though that looking at the terrorist actions on all sides in Ireland better shows us just how hard terrorism is to bring to an end. It is base egoism that makes the United States leaders presently believe they can win any sort of war on terrorism in a few years.

Small fish. How many wars have been, are going on in the middle-east alone. How much the presidents have lied, this president lies. The media spouts "news" daily, and yet it's not interesting, nor surprising.

And you runts gnaw.

What's your point?

To sit back and just ignore the fact that it all happens just becuase we know that it does?