i actually rather enjoy dutchgothdiva's equating desire and fantasy, becasue i think it was a connection i had in the back of my mind which until now i hadn't been able to see clearly. hmmm... here we go...

fantasy, imagination, creativity, etc. are almost like a bridge between the exterior world and the interior self; while we 'desire' the necessities of life to continue living, that's not the same as desiring other things; knowledge, respect, love, understanding, etc. there are parallels between what we want due to our 'lower' nature (feed, mate, kill, repeat... or something) and what we want due to our 'higher' nature (enjoy a glass of wine, dancing with a lover, revenge, etc). what we need is thus a subset of what we want; we want what we need, but we don't necessarily need what we want. our animal instincts tell us what we need. how then do we know what we want?

i think experience, as dutchgothdiva stated, is key... as 666 stated, upbringing is functional as it gives us experiences. but no further. we are in part taught what we should believe, and in part we see what others do believe. we never know exactly how to feel, because we can never be sure if we understand others, or if they're telling us the truth. we must therefore extrapolate what is desirable from what we see, and then verify first hand that it is desirable by seeking it. desiring something can be one of two things: having a nagging suspicion that something is what you want, and needing to verify it; knowing from past experiences that something was good and wanting to experience it again.

so desire is, and this may seem like stating the obvious, but i hope to go somewhere with it, trying to feel good. sustaining ourselves is good because, one way or another, we know life is good from past experiences and want to keep it going. or, otherwise, it's the thought of fulfilling our desires before we die that keeps us going; the nagging suspicion, the perversion. one who truly has never fulfilled any desires and who has no hope of ever doing so has no reason to live. at most, the desire to avoid death will sustain him.

relating my current ideas to the title of the thread, it seems fancy is bred somewhere above the heart and below the head, or in both simultaneously. i'm sure though that there's more to desire than gratifying some basic instincts. and there's more to it than 'monkey see, monkey do'. desire is somewhere between curiosity and orgasm. it's a tease, and that's why desires really do disappear when you achieve them. the magic is lost, but it returns.

man's greater intellect allows him to experience a wider variety of desires than other animals; to experience more pleasure in gratifying them and more displeasure in being denied them. the desires we have which do not relate directly to the necessities of life are normally related to them, but such that they increase our desire. take kissing, appetizers, and jacuzzis. these things are superfluous, but many people still desire them. kissing heightens the desire for more physical activity, culminating in intercourse. appetizers heighten the desire for more food, which leads to nourishment. jacuzzis make us relax, which leads to feeling safe and secure. success makes us feel strong, which we associate with dominance. the list goes on and on.

what does everyone think? are any clarfications necessary? i wonder whether i make any sense at all sometimes.

in synthesis, the desires we have which are not the necessities of life are perverted extrapolations/interpretations of what we need based on what we know we need and what we see other people doing. our basic needs, however, are ingrained in our flesh. the rest comes from fantasy, as dutchgothdiva put it.

those endorphines sure are addictive

desires are pre existing when your born its food and shelter when you get older you add sex

the whole of human wants are based on chemichal dependence, getting high if you will, how long that high lasts and what makes it occur are products of experince and upbrining.

for example your desire to be diffrent (Sixx covered but just to drive it home) comes most likely from your inabaility to fit into some social group and you have learned thru experince that it makes you feel better to rebel against the requirments of that group then to attempt to live up to the standards of that group. This is not to insult you, every single person does this. The important aspect of this paticualr line of discussion is why would you want to fit into that group in the first place.

it's the basic instinct re-interpreted via fantasy and imagination to something tangential but not strictly necessary. what you want it to do for you is necessary, but what it can do for you is not.

TO YOU ALL:

Where is the fine line between "fantasy" and "desire," Apostate? For, it may be a fantasy of mine to do some QUOTE-UNQUOTE thing, and when having done said thing I ultimately desire it...(such as, smoking. I am addicted, I not only fancy a cigarette every now and then, desire to puff away, but it does calm me down...and studies have shown that nicotene does boost creativity...but, that's niether here nor there...that's just...blah)

What my main concern is...

All of you seem to discern between two different types of desire...one which is instictual, and one which is fruitful. But, that's still pretty vague and broad.

For with a desire, such as survial, which is instinctual and a necessity, what does one say of how they achieve said desire? How do we characterize "living comfortably?" And what does that entail?

INSTINCT = to live.
DESIRE = to have a decent paying job to help support yourself easily.

Is that desire fruitful?

INSTINCT = to live.
DESIRE = recognition of predujices...I'm white, I don't want to live in the ghetto. I'm a liberal, I don't want to live in a redneck town.

Is that desire fruitful?

INSTINCT = to live.
DESIRE = I suffer from some mental disease (pick one) and it's recomended that if I wish to live in society psychologically and socially fit, I must take a certain medicine.

Is that desire fruitful?

INSTINCT = to live.
DESIRE = I am paralyzed...I would like a wheelchair.

Is that desire fruitful?


Overall, I understand these are very general and not specific...but how does one judge the desire to eat a fancy meal at a fancy resturaunt to conforming with societies standards by getting a job to the avalability of "things" which help one through life (such as, a stove to cook with; a spade to garden with) and yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.

It is all about Ambition. Desires are just a means to an end. Your body feels hungry and all of a sudden you desire food. Ambition however turns instinctual hum-ho desires into creativity and drive. One can desire lots of money and yet without ambition one will never even come close to having more than enough money to feed thier face.

Desire comes in two flavors, instinctual and that which is intellectually bred. Instinctual desire will do nothing more than keep you warm, fed, and sexxed up. Intellectual desire will grant you anything within the realm of your imaginings if you have the ambition to go out and work for them.

yes, i agree with dyshade. the nature of the desires are different, while instinctual desires are what we really need, and other desires are what we extrapolate we need from our experiences. such desires are perversions of their necessity-of-life counterparts but also directly parallel to them, such that satisfying the extravagant will often times satisfy the basic.

ambition, or lust, is the word for such a perversion of our natural instincts. we feel, we see, and we desire. we desire what we know we need and what we think we need.

I would not call it a perversion. It is fairly normal human behaviour to have great ambition. It is the sights that most people set for themselves that are often hollow and ill-thought out.

If your only ambition is to be the manager of a gas station than that is exactly what you will accomplish even if it takes 20 years because you cannot count back change.

I know that I want to die never having fulfilled my penultimate ambition. Of course I set mine fairly high

It also has been shown to shorten life expectancy which pretty much negates any boost you may percieve to have gained from smoking. The shit thing is if you try to smoke more in order to give your creativity a full on kick in the ass you will probably end up dead right in the middle of a brain-buzz. I would rather live to be 90 and have 30 years more to write and socialize instead of dead at 50 or 60 or even younger. "'

again, ignoring the negative connoation of the word 'perversion', all it means is to be "for" a certain "way". ie, getting what you want. ambition. perversion can be positive or negative, it's all subjective.

Okay, I did some brief searching, and rather than babble it all out...

Here's an interesting link:

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~schroed...hilosophy.html

wow very, very interesting. i'm gonna have to chew on those for a while.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
de‧sire  /dɪˈzaɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-zahyuhr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -sired, -sir‧ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1. to wish or long for; crave; want. I believe this to be the mind. Anything that we crave or want is a huge illusion that we create for ourselves. Why else would we want it so badly? For example, I want this pirates costume and it costs $120.00. The size is perfect for me and I think I would so damn cute in it. Being practical, I realize I'm paying a lot of money for a costume that I'm just going to wear it once. I have created this idea of how great I'll look in a costume which will most likely allow guys to get a view up my skirt or a look at my legs. I realize this is a stupid but it was the only example I could think at the moment and it's true.

6. sexual appetite or a sexual urge. I believe this could be the mind and the heart. People have get horny and that can just be the mind. Or two people can be in love and want to express in an intimate matter. I think this to be the mind and the heart. Love is a tricky thing. Hard to explain.

However, whenever I am passionate about something, for me it's the heart. I will work on something for days at a time until it's done and perfect in my eyes. But, there's always wishing you had more time to make something better.

Descartes= skepticism. He didn't believe we could rely on our senses because our senses could be impaired or easily influenced by something. He's one tough philosopher, and I wish I never read anything by him.

i think you just made the exclusive list of my fav people ever.
seriously, though, if you find the topic interesting i suggest you follow 666's link, it's really interesting stuff. i love him to death (666), but it seems almost like he's got all the answers a lot of the time. almost takes the fun out of philosophical debate... almost.

Sorry...

most of this looks very much like an adict trying to rationlize his addiction. It is an interesting parelel no? its all based on chemichal dependency

He is a philosophy major. One of the reasons I disliked philosophy is because it seems to sometimes grant you all the answers in a wel thought out reasonable manner that leaves no room for questioning or argument. I like to argue. I wil often pick up the devils advocate side of an argument and attempt to make it work no matter how unreasonable it seems. (I have done so here on DF many, many times.)

I LIKE philosophical thought however because it is not inflexable like religious thought is. Philosophical thought at least allows for change.

I also like theology due to this fact.