suicide and drugs......well, they are considered illegal, but can anyone legitamately tell me why!

first off, considering drugs, does not a person have the right to do to their body as they wish...we allow all sorts of extremities: peircings, tattoos, homosexuality, any type of sexual desire for that matter, eating habits, etc....
who is to say what i can or cannot do to my body.....it is not my body the government or anyone should be concerned with, it is what harm my body may do to other bodies.....in that sense, drugs should just be regulated like cigarettes and alcohol.

now, considering suicide....
1) as i have said, who is to say i do not have the right to do with my body as i wish? as long as i do not harm other people, (granted emotional harm may be in effect, but let us just consider physical harm), who has the right to controll what i wish for myself.
2) as far as we can all agree, on the lowest level, we exist thus far for only one reason: to die after living.....with that said, then the existentialist factor should entail that after any type life, whether a life that recognizable or not (or not being that of a life for an infant), we ultimately must regard death as that which will become of us....therefore, suicide is a legitemate source t bring a means to an end, even if prematurely....i mean, one could argue that suicide is not letting death have its natural cause, but then again life as we live it ultimately is the natural cause

actually, i disagree... we dont live to die... we live to fucking live...

agreed. If someone was truly living to die, that person would be dead now.

dontcha just love that paradox...

People that give a shit about you and your health for whatever fuckin reason.

if you want to kill yourself.. and do drugs to harm yourself you automatically become a "mental retard" or a person who "doesn't know whats best for him/her"... so its society's responsibility to protect you from your self..

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Originally posted by errantrogue
actually, i disagree... we dont live to die... we live to fucking live...
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i didn't mean it the way it sounded....i meant it from an existentialist type of approach....as far as we know, existence at one point in time becomes non-existent, so whats the point of existence if all it will eventually become is non-existence....but you are right in saying we live to live, but i am just trying to justify suicide

and i do not feel society has the right to play mother, like i said as long as we do not harm other people (avoiding emotional anguish here) then what i choose to do is my right....

i am me, not anyone else, i do what the hell i want to do as long as i keep it to myself, who would argue against that?

however, somone here raised a good point....if indeed what i do is my choice, and it does not harm anyone else, then no one has the right to intercept....so, what to we say about mentally-retarded people, can they too have this case of freedom?

oh, there is one last thing...what paradox are you mentioning?....that if people lived to die they would be dead by now is not a paradox, for in the application of motion you start at one point, then move, then cease to move....whatever the length of time or space is a separate related issue, and does not result in a paradox...

Its the difference between existing to die as a aim(paradox) and existing to one day die as fate.

I disagree with what you said, Six, as far as suicide. We don't live to die. There's some sort of reason we're here, more than the fact that we're going to die. Death is our destiny. Not our reason for existance.

Drugs/Alcohol, well, those aren't really a problem as long as they're not abused...

i agree with you, but at the same time i propose another solution....if i may elaborate on your idea, let us consider the idea of a book:

destiny = author
death = conclusion
reason/existence = theme/essence
birth = introduction

now, by taking this into idea, then despite the conclusion/death the theme/essence still in a sense lives on....if we may avoid any notion of an actual entity of a soul, but instead consider the realm of essence, or idea of essence, then despite the demise of our physical bodies the essence in a sense still exists...now, if this seems like a valid statement, then despite the length of the book, whether it be a 1000 pages or 1 word, the essence will always exist in some form....

therefore, cannot suicide be justified for it merely is the conclusion? however, i am well aware of the argument that the essence is not at its fullest is suicide is the conclusion, but if death is our destiny, and destiny is the author, then our conclusion is at its fullest...

but if you are not satisfied with this idea, then simply take the idea that suicide might limit the full potential of the essence, nonetheless an essence exists....

Given a little more time I bet you could also justify murder in the same way, apply yourself correctly and you could also justify rape and every other act classed as immoral.Sure theres the case of it being forced upon someone else but that can be worked around.Just like the emotional harm to others was pushed aside here but it doesnt matter does it? Just as long as there`s no marks to show pain it doesnt count.
I could give half of the people on here their "conclusions" that want it but I know that they are not of sound mind to want it, just suffering so much that they cant currently cope.

Couldn't have said it better myself, Red.

Aside from that, Destiny isn't so much the author as it is the background player who its all dedicated to for the help...

But who would be the author then? Fate? Or something else?

Fate is the material provided, free will is each persons ability to shape that material.

No one can truely justify any action by calling it the product of a higher will.

Most definately true. Aside from that, its irresponsible.

hmm....i like this idea you propose, you propose that anything can be justified....but by doing do so you justify suicide as being ok....
in regards to anguish, assume there exists a man whose existence is unknown....assume he lives alone, in the woods, his family as perished....therefore his suicide is free from any anguish

on a side note, it is coincidental that i just posted this new thread when NIN "I Just Want Something I can Never Have" came on my radio....it is the song i used to religiously listen to when i myself was suicidal, but i should also point out that my personal attempts with suicide were merely an act...i didn't truly want to kill myself, i just wanted to show a girl i could not live without her....i just figured i would throw that out there for everyone to know

personaly, i think suicide is somewhat of an arrogant decision, but not an ignorant one...but i just wonder why people consider suicide as immoral and wrong...i think that if it can be rationally justified, it boils down to a free-choice...but the problem with this is as you proclaim, anything can be justified when free-choice is granted

I think people find it immoral because life is precious. They have no right to that claim - if somebosdy wants to kill themselves that is their right.

The same that it is my right as a human being if I want to murder someone I can. It may be immoral (an invention in itself) but it is still my right to do so as it is your right to murder me if you so wish (unless I shoot you first of course ).

As you say six as long as nobody get hurt then what does it matter. Though people get hurt if you kill yourself (at least i'd hope they would for your sake cos I'm a nice guy at heart). But then again that's something they'll have to live with isn't it.

Drugs - well most people i think would argue that 'drugs are evil and will make you kill your babies!!' Most people who die from drugs do so through lack of education over the use of the drug or from something the drug was cut with. In the UK 60 people in the last 10 years died from exstacy - 6 people a year! More die from paracetomol. I wouldn't want to know the figure of how many died through alcohol and tabacco.

Cannabis is a direct competitor to the oil companies. In fact, the newpaper campaigning against c/bis was allied with the oil companies in some way. They called it marijuana back then. The case went to court despite objections from the US medical association for more time to prepare and it was outlawed. As for other drugs, like lsd, they free the mind and controllers don't like free minds unless they are dishing out the 'freedom'.

Man has used drugs throughout history. It is a part of our life. I was unlucky enough to be born in the only time when they were made illegal!

Most people concider "drugs" to be illegal in the sense that they can harm someone (mostly the person using them, and people close to that one), and that would be doing unjust to all people included. They don't look at the fact that all store and prescibed medications, that are there to HELP people, have EXACTLY the same potential as any street drug. With that as the case, shouldn't all medications, prescription and streetwise, be illegal? Unfortunately, the lawmakers of this *wonderful* country don't think in those types of terms. As far as they see, if it has effects that are slower to show themselves, then the drug is perfectly legal and profitable. If it has quicker effects, then it's illegal.

Amazingly (or maybe not so much once you think about it), suicide seems to be on the same terms as drugs. If a person has a physical ailment that can't be cured and will kill the person before old age hits, then it's alright for them to decide not to live any longer at that point. If someone has an ailment of the mind that they aren't able to find a way to deal with, yet the "professionals" and "doctors" say it is fixable, then it is not alright in any sense for that person to end it all. All because it's quick and rash with a mental ailment for suicide to be desired, it's concidered illegal.

It seems that the quicker it can happen, the more illegal it is. That sure does explain a lot about laws, progress and congress, then.