Crime pays, pugh.


Quote 'What the hell does all this have to do with my life and how to live it?' End quote

Did you read anything I said, Guy_person? Since the gods care nothing for us, its up to us to make our lives as happy or miserable as we want them to be. There is no afterlife in any traditional understanding of the word. Therefore we should Live as we can. The individual makes the moral judgements.

Okay, so show me the practical application of this ethic. All I can see as a result of this ethic is the mildly successful protest movements of the 60's and 70's and two and a half generations of terrible irresponsibility.

Self Responsibility calls for discipline and forethought, Guy_person. You are remarking on the incompetance of a less evolved era.

Moral relativism (aka, the absence of morality) is obsolete. These are not rules to live by, these are potential justifications for violence and escapism. Are your ethics a reliable way to run a nation?

Okay I can see where this is going. Its time to clear something up.

This is my beliefs concerning the nature of the universe, devoid of moral or ethical principles. This is my belief concerning 'the way it is'. Not the way we should live our lives. I think when you read the word 'belief' you automatically thought 'religion'.

No, I didn't. But I am a philosophical pragmatist. And your view of the universe just isn't all that practical if what we're looking for is a philosophy that suits the common man.

Well, instead of attacking me and insulting me, why don't you tell me how it could be better?

I'm not attacking or insulting you. I'm merely pointing out that, hey, this has no use. It is bunk. It is junk. It is a needlessly complex knot that can simply be sliced through. It is useless on any large scale. Maybe it works for you, individually. Maybe it's a fine way for you, as an individual to run your life. But who else cares?

Okay now that -is- insulting. I break my intellectual back and work my fingers to the bone trying to stupid this information down enough that ordinary people can understand it and you dismiss it as bunk?! I bet you don't even understand half of it! Possibly more than half. I don't give a shit what you meant when you said that. It was insulting as hell. Asshole.

Not a very intelligent thing to say for someone who's so benevolent that he goes through the trouble of "dumbing things down" for us not-smart folk *hyuk*.

I've personally been taught that once a person achieves true understanding of how the universe works, he becomes enlightened. Your words do not sound like those of an enlightened person, so I can't really believe that you have a true understanding of how the universe works, especially when you're very obviously missing the understanding of the binding factor for any person: Yourself. I've spoken in length elsewhere about my opinion that you can only hope to build upon things that you can do for yourself. Anything else is supported by things done and learned by other people, it is dependent on those things. If your philosophy is dependent on anything you haven't learned for yourself, then it is useless.

Would you know how to survive in the wild? How to make shelter, procure water and food, create fire, etc? You're obviously an educated person, familiar with scientific principals, and theories, and I'd hope somewhere in this you would have come across Maslow's hierarchy of needs. At the top, if I remember correctly, is transcendence. At the bottom are the aforementioned physical needs. How can you really expect to reach the top for yourself if you haven't built the bottom for yourself as well?

You seem to be a scientific example of the age old Christian stereotype of people gazing to the heavens when they should be more focused on what's right in front of them.

Heaven forbid your mental masturbation be rejected by the world at large. I understood most of it, which is why I confidently say it is without use. I know, I know that these are not things that your common individual can understand and work with. Don't worry, I'm not singling you out as a philosopher without a brain; 80% of "great" philosophers up to this point have offered very little to common society. Tell me how to live or stop trying.

About maslow and his hierarchy of needs, which I am familiar with.

In the event that I was stuck out in the wild and without means to meet my needs, I could in fact build the means to meet my needs. However as a matter of preference I chose to live in civilized society. So that I don't -have- to deal with the problems of the wilderness.

Quote

Don't worry, I'm not singling you out as a philosopher without a brain;

End quote

I think you are, Guy_person. The discussion between you and me is over. Our beliefs are to far different to be reconciled. Stop trying to convert me to your bullshit christianity. I will not now or ever worship a dead jew and his pie in the sky "god".

Show me where I tried to convert you. And no, I'm not singling you out, I'm lumping your philosophy (if you think your philosophy is you, that's a whole new set of problems) into a whole bag of other philosophies that are about as useful as an asshole on your forehead.

Why don't you prove to me that you understand what I say then, guy_person. Prove me wrong. Prove your intelligence. You can't quote me or any other source. Use only and to the exclusion of all else your own words. (and I will check quotes to make sure that they really -are- your own words).

This brings me to a question that's been lingering in my mind for a good long while now. I can accept that people don't want to believe in a "Christian God", but why does it seem that the good majority of people that don't believe in such a God don't just stop at disbelief, they actually seem to hold a grudge against the notion?

This excludes a good portion of other organized religions, although not totally. While I think the majority of Hinduists, Jewish, Buddhists and so on don't hold a grudge against the Christian God, I do think the majority of Atheists, the lesser known mystic/tribal religions, and those that follow the path of science based religion do hold such a grudge.

And what for? Because the majority of Christians you've met have been assholes? Because you think if there is a caring and loving God that you shouldn't have to suffer tragedies in life? I'm sure the reasons change from person to person, but I'm also sure none of these reasons is a good enough one to dismiss an entire religion and the people that follow it. I respect people's right to freedom because I believe above all else, God gave us freedom to choose. To try and force people to believe in God would be to try to deny them the gift that he bestowed upon us all. I also feel ill suited to decide a good person's lack of faith in Christ will wind up with them going to hell. That decision is not mine to make.

I oppress no one, I am Christian and I would die for someone else’s right to not be. And yet I continue to hear constant befouling of my Lord's name. Why? I never speak ill of your gods or beliefs. When I do have qualms with people of different faith, it is because they have shown narrow mindedness towards my God and my savior, the same narrow mindedness that they accuse Christians of having.

I wrote a school paper a long while ago that was titled “I’ve never met someone who didn’t believe in God”. The reasoning behind this was that what was personified as a singular sentient being to Christians and other monotheists was different things to different people, but all referred to the same unifying or series of unifying forces that controlled existence. It was meant to harmonize, but people from all different faiths immediately jumped to the conclusion that I was belittling their beliefs, that I was saying that their faith was just an offshoot of the one true God. No one could see that I was just trying to meet them halfway.

So what is it? Why the constant downing of Christianity? Why the grudge against our God?

personally as a non-christian, i detest the need of most christians to convert non-chritians... i can let them be when they stop telling me im evil and should conform to their way

also i have read the bible a number of times, and grew up studying christianity enough to know its not nor ever wiil be for me

The presumptuousness of humanity amazes me. Why would a god or gods be anything like humanity? Lets be realistic here. Why would any god even -care- about one little tiny backwoods planet and its inhabitant evolved apes? Can you honestly tell me why a god or gods would be anything like anything the human mind can concieve of or understand? Can you honestly tell me why god or gods would care about one little shitty planet in a multitude of universes? Can you give me some reason god or Gods would even know we exist?

and i do not have a grudge against "your god" as i do not believe in him... i have a grudge against over enthusiastic christians who dismiss our ideologies just as easily as you suggest we dismiss yours, except they say we are evil because of it, we just say we do not believe your line of thinking

So many responses so quickly..

To Void_Enthroned, because back when God/God's were personified, people did not have as much understanding of things that they do these days. It was important to relate the idea of an omnipotent force to something they were familiar with. How were you supposed to describe the universe to people who had never even seen the world? That the idea of a God in human form got carried on was simply tradition. I know very few Christians who imagine God in such a way now adays, though they continue to refer to God as "He" simply because that's how it's always been. To change it would complicate things more than they helped them. And why would he care about us? Because he created us. It is useless to get caught up in a debate about this part, because first you would have to prove his not existing to me, or I would have to prove his existing to you. Neither will happen.

I would however like to point out that no sooner do I say "it is because they have shown narrow mindedness towards my God and my savior, the same narrow mindedness that they accuse Christians of having.", you immediately jump to trying to show me the reasons why my faith could not possibly be correct.

And to Hexsass, read the above paragraph. The majority of your people do dismiss Christian ideologies just as much as Christians do the same to them. At least I'm willing to admit the majority of Christianity are self righteous morons who try to force their beliefs on others, I'm just asking that the God and true message behind Christianity not be confused with the mislead idiots presenting it to people. If you do not hold a grudge against the Christian God or the religion of Christianity, then little I said was meant for you. But you cannot deny that I did indeed have an audience of equally narrow minded non-Christians to ask my questions to, especially when one of them posted right above you an entire schpeel on why there's no possible way my ideologies could be correct.

If you're taking these comments to be directed towards you, Hexsass, then please know that they're not. They are meant for whom they are directed towards and no one else. If you don't hold a senseless grudge, or if you're not complaining about Christians forcing beliefs on you as you try to do the same back, then none of my words were for you. However, I think just responding as you have to those words when they were obviously not meant for you shows that you do indeed feel pressured even by a something as passively written as my last post. I made no attacks, and yet you still jumped into defense as if I were addressing my questions to you. Why is this?