... Im not sure why im writting this here, but I need to get these thoughts out of my head. I am an american child... worse yet I was born and raised in California. All I know is the fight for fame and glory... the persute of happiness through monatery power. I've dreamt for many of the same things... but anytime I have a feel for them or think deeply about it... I realize it means nothing to me. I look around at my friends and the people walking next to me.. the strangers on the street... their eyes are dead. A soul burns within them... but it does not have the compassion, fury, or brilliance that it needs.
...Im tired of wanting... Im tired of having no faith in anything.. myself included.
I do not ask for an easy answer.. I do not want anything handed to me unless it is simply the opertunity to learn.
I have been reading a lot lately... and lately I have been studying the way of the Bushido... the Honor code of the Samurai.... . and it truly grieves me when I think of how proud they were to simply live and dedicate their lives to the perfection of life... whatever path they chose... they dedicated everything to it.
.. and than I look around me... and see all these people scurring about.. trying to 'beat the clock'... or simply 'get rich quick'... .. what happened to Honor?... is it hiding within our hearts and souls waiting to be released by something or someone?.... .. or has it simply died and withered away from my culture.
... all I know... is that I do not feel whole... .and no amount of money... no amount of fame... and no amount of power will ever make me complete.
.. I do not pretend to know what I seek... only that I must keep going untill I find it... but I do know... that I cannot live my life without Honor... there is so very little left in the world today.. that it would be the greatest of evils to let it disapear entirely.... and I will not have a hand in it.
... I used to hate the fact that I was a 'good person'... that I couldnt bring myself to do things that others could... ... but now.... I think I have started to accept that it is a streingth.... not a weakness.... and when I die... be it tomorrow or the end of time. I will die knowing that atleast I was the person that resides in my heart... and not the mask that we wear to please others.
... if I die and I am still following my heart.... than.. maybe than I will find the pride and honor that I feel is dead within me. Untill than... all I can do is follow where it leads me... I just hope that I maintain the discipline to stay the course.

- Jeff

I'm on my way out now but I'd like to discuss this with you later.

..*s*.. whenever you got the time... I really didnt expect anyone to reply to this truthfully.

I have a really mixed up understanding of the word itself. To start with, is there honour without loyalty???

why must honor be declared by the actions according to the bushido? or whoever? honor is nothing more than having a pride within something, and striving to allow said something to continue thriving........a man may have honor in the fact that he loves his wife dearly, and nothing will come between that........another man might have honor that he was once poor but now rich, providing for his family more so than his did for him.........another man has honor by joing the army.....etc........you obviously have honor within yourself.........

I never meant to imply that Honor was something only achieved by the life according to bashido.. not in the least.. I find honor in lots of things.... but what im saying.. is I do not see the honor in almost anything around me... the examples you give are far and few between... most people who become rich dont see the honor in it.. just the satisfaction of having all the material things they want. and Like I said before... i didnt really mean to write that towards anyone.. . I just was kinda struggling with it in myself... I have always strived to be honorable in everything I do.. that doesnt mean being a uptight fuck about things.. just.. dont do things that go against my heart. But lately I just havent been able to feel proud of anything in my life... like I said.. just a struggle.

you dont have to have loyalty to a specific person... but to yourself and your beliefs... so yes.. loyalty is a part of Honor...

Personaly I see honor as a personal code of ethics combined with some form of humility, as the humility is also relevant to the reputation of the individual. I`ve always seen being overly prideful as one that takes honor away from a person.
Besides integrity, the idea of living out your chosen path to life is interesting. Its like the living life to its fullest saying but maybe without the same level of frivolousness and more of a sense of accomplishment?

Capitalism has to go

I think the problem occurs with honour when a code is followed blindly. I think the whole 'death before dishonour' thing is a bit extreme. What of 'honour killings' in Pakistan. It is an ethical choice. Actually there are several things for me that blow honour outta the water; love, respect, compassion, to name a few. Honour seems drained of any emotional attachment or flexibility.

well see.. in my eyes... Honor.. or atleasy my personal honor... is simply a word ecompassing the whole spectrum of things that I cherish... such as Love, respect, compassion and all those things that remind you to keep breathing. Thats what honor is to me.. its just that it also needs some guidlines... but no.. i dont believe in death before dishonor.. I believe that just have to find honor in every situation.. there is always a way to do the right thing... evan if it doesnt seem right at the time.

The whole 'honour' thing is a bit skewed for me I suppose, I bit of childhood baggage. When I look at people I hold in esteem, honourable would be one of the last words I'd use to describe them even though the term may apply. To describe say, the Dalai Lama the first word that comes to mind would be compassion. I don't believe there is any ego in compassion whereas honour can become confused with pride. However, Red Meat believes honour is not prideful but most of the examples I've seen to represent honour are pumped up in their own self righteous glory.
My warped little thoughts anyway.

I think, honour is connected with pride, because noone who is not pride can act honourable. Honour means for me to be "true to oneself" and somebody who is not pride denies his inner being.

You can be true to yourself without being proud of it or ashamed....but I suppose honor would have to be regulated by pride and shame socaly for honor to work well on any large scale. I can see the connection between pride and honor so long as there is a reasonable limit to how proud a individual should act but still think they are also able to be mutually exclusive in some cases.

hmmm... kinda seems like we have a slightly differant view of pride.... like its differant for each one of us.... to me its just like any other emotion... it can be good within reason.. but not in excess... and I do think that to have pride in ones self is not a bad thing... only if that pride makes you foolish

what is the basis to the emotion of Shame?



why is it that Shunning is an effective social punishment?

Isn't pride totally ego driven though? Self confidence is different. Confidence is based on an acceptance and sureness of character still keeping ego in check. Pride goeth before a fall.
Shame to me is the realisation that you have done something preventively wrong and regret it.

Shunning is constantly used in families (personally speaking) as well as society and as far as I'm concerned it displays a total ignorance by the shunner and is not an effective tool but a sign of control and manipulation.

I think we've got to be careful because honour is not a universally defined concept - it's a set of ethical codes which are defined at a social/cultural/personal level, so one person's code of honour can be completely opposed to another person's if they belong to different societies or cultures.

Shame is a big one - shame is an incredibly powerful set of emotions. It's a big subject in psychotherapy. It's a very powerful controlling tool because shame is directed against oneself BY oneself - which is far more powerful a tool than shunning, which is directed against oneself BY another.

The reasons for feeling shame are based in social/cultural mores ingrained in your upbringing. In very simplistic terms, shame is a learned response which is produced when you fail to observe the code of "correct" behaviour that has been instilled into you.

I think it's also important to note that a person's code of honour and the code of "correct" behaviour that they've been instilled with may be completely at variance, so a person can still feel shame even when they can truthfully say to themselves that they've followed their code of honour.

Hey, 'once was Lazarus'? You've been Inced? So nicely stated.

I hate to get sexual on you (well at this time anyway), but do you believe honour to be a predominantly male description of character? And is honour without emotion?
Is shame directly related to honour as it is also based on personal morality? How does guilt differ from shame in a psychological definition?

alright soulfull.. lemme take a crack at this one *s*..
..no... I dont believe honor has anything to do with your Sex... cause like Laz said.. its all about personal code and conduct... there for a women could see herself as honorable just as easily as a man could... now certain part of culture might not feel the same.. but thats because they still havent gotten over their sexist pretenses.
.. as for shame.. I believe it is the result of broken honor... if you are trying to abide by a personal code and you fail... its not gauranteed to bring shame (unless its a society that forces such things upon you).. but shame may be what you feel for 'failing'. as for the differance between guilt and shame.. I think its simply that shame is something you feel when YOU feel like you have done something wrong.. and guilt is when society or another individual makes you feel like you have done something wrong.