Sure, I see your points (well your literary ones.)( Sorry, don't know what's wrong with me today. Must be a 'high libido' warning on my biorhythme chart or something.)

You didn't answer whether 'honour' was without emotion though?

Yup, I'd agree that the concept of honour in the western world at this point in time is predominantly a male affectation. However, you only have to go back a few decades to the concept of a woman who has been "dishonoured" to see a female equivalent. I don't know about non-western concepts of honour because I've never studied them (or watched that many martial arts films )

Certainly, though, in patriarchal societies the concept of honour lies mainly upon men, but only because of the objectification of women - afterall, how can a possession have any honour?

Is honour without emotion - I'd say yes. Honour is a code of behaviour (or the state of adhering to a code of behaviour), rather than an emotion. Adhering to that code of behaviour may produce emotion (pride, contentedness) as will deviating from it (shame, guilt etc).

Is shame directly related to honour - well, it's certainly tied up in the whole concept. Honour is the set of social rules, and shame is a learned behaviour which works as a rod to the carrots of "pride" and "being accepted". er. so to speak.

how does guilt differ from shame. hmmm - that's a good one. I'm no expert in psychology, so a quick search on Google will have to suffice:

"Guilt says I've done something wrong; shame says there is something wrong with me.
Guilt says I've made a mistake; shame says I am a mistake.
Guilt says what did was not good; shame says I am no good."

alternatively, a simple difference seems to be that guilt is felt when you've done something you believe is "wrong" but no one else knows, and shame is felt when you've done something society thinks is "wrong" and people around you know about it (or you believe that they do).

I don't know which (if either) is the psychological definition, though.

No, very cool, very cool...answered my questions eloquently, thank you.

When you mention the dishonour of a woman, that was usually cast on her by the honour code of the male hierarchy though, yes?

Absolutely - and I suppose you could also argue that the "dishonour" of the woman is actually a reflected dishonour upon any man who later "possesses" her. By that, I mean that she is seen more as a source of loss-of-honour, rather than having any particular "honour rating" in herself.

Or perhaps (thinking this through as I go along here!) that a woman's honour (as a single woman) is part of her dowry to her husband, and her honour as a wife is composed of the reflected honour from her husband (unless she breaches any major social mores).

Oooh, I like that. Yeah true. And does a woman look for the same honour codes in a man before she buys his wares? or do we still suffer the double standard stigma?

The Victorian code of honour (behaviour) for a man was different than that of the woman, and that has certainly continued until recent times. Whether it's still the case - well, honour codes change a bit more rapidly these days. Compare what you consider "acceptable (honourable) behaviour" to what your parents' generation would, and then their parents' generation. And it's not even just generational differences, when you throw in the mixture of different cultures and sub-cultures, class (in Britain, at least), racial backgrounds... There are just so many codes of honour going round - everybody got one, I want mine.

So, back to your question: Does a woman look for the same honour codes in a man? God only knows what women think or look for, I certainly don't have a clue.

Once again the answers are relative. Such is philosophy.
That was probably the best answer to the question posed. But don't think it's gender specific. I have no idea what men look for either.

damn good points Laz .. couldnt have said it better myself *s*...
.
.... btw...lol.. how do you tell who gave you rep?

You don't.

lol.. thats what I thought...

.. well it is neering that time again.... christmas... so I hope all of you have a good plans and better presents *hugs all*

Thanks darlin', the best to you and yours too.*hugs back.(and front)*

Self feels Honor is to simply put personal pride in a form of behavior of the SELF..
Who judges your honor YOU DO! ,Who regulates and dictates What is honorable to the self ? YOU do !! One can put what ever one wants into a code of Honor(ethics?) because its simply a self govening set of rules to try and live up to to achive a personal goal ..or if its a group thing than so be it but the individual had to choose to follow that system and be graded as such and yeah personal pride is the reward most ppl see but it also boost or lowers confidence ,self-esteme,etc.......

...... I kinda came to an interesting question tonight.... .. Im a little drunk.... and I have had a very bad night.... there for.. lol.. it seems that its a good time to think about things.... and I have been weighing the pros and cons of taking my own life I guess you could say... .. .. and I think one of the reasons I have never actually gone through with it... is because I feel like.. evan if I am dead.. I dont want to be a bad person.... .. and... I guess I feel like I would dishonor myself by giving up... ... but .. by staying here.. and surviving.... it seems no more rewarding.... .. .. its kinda the constant battle I go through.... than again.. like I said.. Im drunk.. so... Im probly just being too honost....

Never too honest. Tis a common struggle. I'm glad you have the thought it dishonourable to give in. Doesn't matter what the reason. What you are going through is a rite of passage and once you learn how to cope (which usually happens without you realising) nothing is insurmountable.

You ever want to talk privately, you know what to do.

*hugs soulfull*... *s*.. thank you... it is nice to know that people care.. evan if it is the rambling of a drunk lol... well Im not drunk anymore.. but you know what I mean .. I've always had an issue with giving in to things.. so I hopefully I will survive this 'rite of passage' *smirk*... though I didnt think they were supposed to last this long.. seems like I've been dealing with this for the majority of my life.... *shrugs*.. I guess it will just be that much better when I make it right *s*

You're too coherent for a proper pisshead. I, on the other hand, will rely on you to defend my honour (note reference to thread subject) next time I am in mood to slur and babble!

*bows*... consider your honor defended... now and always *s*..
.. I hope you and everyone else is having a nice christmas....
this is actually the first christmas I have enjoyed in years...
no one fought.. and best of all.. we actually all had a good time..
which... is a rarity around my family *s*.... best of all... my dad and I got to talk and he said some things that I never imagined he would say.... he actually said he was proud of me... and that he doesnt want me to change anything about me.. that I am a wonderful person...... . now... usually I would be flattered and maybe dismiss a few of those politely... but.. with him.... .. I have been waiting for him to say something like that all my life.. we come from two totally differant worlds... so for him to be ok with me is a huge thing.... anyways.. Im rambling... but needless to say... I think im doing a little better now... *hugs*... it definately helps having nice friends to get you through the hard times... .. merry christmas everyone

(btw.. the things with my dad is also a big deal.. because he has basically disowned me twice in my life.... so.. its kinda shocking for him to accept me)

"There is honor among theives." Honor is adherence to a set of unwaverable ethics. You can make them as you go.

I do not agree with the make it as you go part... but yes.. anyone can have honor... it just depends whos eyes you are honorable in... and hono risnt about following a strict set of rules.. what its truly about is following the guidelines of your heart... thats where honor truly lies.