I wrote a long ass thread on this topic(intermingled with others) a long time ago, but they never moved it to the philosophy forum despite my numerous request. anyways i'm suppose to run to my house right now(im at school) but im trying to delay myself as much as possible. i hate exerecise unless it's dirty sex with a hot chick. so i figured i'd post this pointless topic. i'm sure it won't be ass annoying as the stupid evangelist threads though. so anyways........


Free will is illusory. it does not exist. however, in our conscious the illusion is created that we are in control of are decisions, ideas, thoughts, actions, ect. ect.ect. no one ever really thinks about it, but that is extremely illogical and most importantly impossible.

we are part of an existence that is structured and follows rules and laws. are world's true GOD is cause and effect. nothing exist outside it's grips. and even if we were to propose something does, it's nature would be random, disconnected and chaotic. im not sure anything could exist any other way. and in both these circumstances, any entity, concsious or not, would lack freedom of will. that includes us and even any of your proposed "god's".

appologies to anyone who has read my prior post on the matter(cuz im saying the same exact boring stuff) but everything that exist in this universe, interacts and affects it's environment in specific ways. things that lack conscious are the easiest to point out. matter will always curve space, regardless of wether it wants to or not, hydrogen and oxygen will always form water wether they want to or not, likewise we are governed by the same structured rules. our thoughts, actions, emotions are all reactions to cause and effect. conscious is created by the interaction of specific materials that exist in our world. these materials are harbored in lifeforms like ourselves. but they are subject to the same exact rules and laws as everything else. my point is that you don't control anything. you are'nt reading this because you want to, you don't do anything on your accord. your just there to watch it all unfold.

choice does not exist, only the idea of choice. i know alot of people don't really care about this topic, but if we have no choice or freedom of will, then most LOVE-HATE religions fall to the ground, including christianity(which i think is a ridiculous religion). and by love-hate i mean 'do this and be saved or do this and i hate you and you go to hell'. why would a just and moral god subject a conscious entity to pain and suffering for actions and decisions that were out of his control? why would a moral person worship such a god? love-hate religions are all pretty evil anyways. they revolve around selfishness. anyways my last thread was bigger but i don't wanna have to write it all again.

no comments? not even about the weather where you live?

I don't get it...we have no control?...it would be a good essay but a bullshit idea...no control whatsoever? We don't choose to read this? So is it that we know we are about to read it because it is interesting so we think we make the choice to read it but it really is some little gremlin introducing thought in our cortex? Say what?

but why do you say the idea is bullshit? i can't imagine it existing any other way. where is it the impulse to read it came from? or the impulse to respond? it had to have come into being through a process. what defines that process? my point is that nothing can exist unless it's governed by it's definition. we do not think. thought happens on it's own. our material and senses create the perception that gets to see the thought come to life. but that's all. we as a single entity have nothing to do with it. we have nothing to do with anything really. we're just an experience. just a perception. everything that happens, outside of your body and inside(emotions and thoughts) are just chain reactions that have nothing to do with you. if you can even call yourself "you"

Blueboy, how would you respond to the following argument?

If everything is deterministic, then all our thoughts are deterministic. If everything is chaotic then all our thoughts are chaotic. But if all of our thoughts are determined by chaos, then there is no rational thought. But if there is no rational thought, there is no reason to believe any of our claims and statements, and this would include the statement, "Everything is determined by chaotic happenings." But this would make your beliefs self-contradictory because your argument, if successful would prove that you cannot accept it's conclusion. But this is absurd.

It's kinda warm. There's a slight breeze.

I'm going to repeat all my arguments I made on the previous thread, only not really because I'm lazy. However, I just don't think everything is determined by cause-effect, I just think it's a human conceit that everything is well-ordered and defined. I think there are matching amounts of chaos and order in the World; good thing, because otherwise life'd just suck all around.

i don't really get it... comparing decision making with the bonding of hydrogen and oxygen atoms makes about as much sense to me as comparing Nintendo to corporate board meetings. Hunger is inevitable. Whether i go to McDonalds or Taco Bell is my own decision.

"The only thing certain in this universe is human stupidity."
-Dude With The Big White Hair Who Founded That Relativity Theory Thing-y

Theres no bigger turn on then when you guys talk like this. If someone is arguing philosophy etc..etc..im drooling. Brains are very attractive and wrinkly things.

chaos is ill defined. we know nothing to be chaotic. it's one of those words that is like free will. it is a notion. in essence there are things we do not understand.this doesn't mean these things aren't subject to cause and effect. thus you cannot say that rationality cannot be birthed through chaos. because for all we know it might(although that does sound illogical). either way i don't see how it contradicts my argument. because i believe everything is deterministic. i don't see how it can be any other way. but if im wrong then what else is there. i can only think of chaos. and if it is, then it does lead to rational thought because here i am thinking rationaly. that still doesn't change the fact that i lack free will. because in either scenario "I" have nothing to do with who i am or what i do. now the chaos scenario doesn't make much sense which again, is why i say everything is deterministic. what other choices have we?

the thing is how do you explain thought? even if it's a mix of cause and effect and chaos, you still lack free will.

sorry for the ill comparison. i think this idea is called materialism along with other names like determinism. i prefer to think of it as materialism because initially it was the interaction of material things in us that gave birth to thought and emotion. after that i think it's an interaction between four things that create our experience. (outside material and non-material stimuli interacting with inside material and non-material things). but my point is the choice to go to taco bell or McDonalds wouldn't really be "your choice"

no because if people don't like nintendo they don't buy it. and if people don't like corporate meetings they go to the movies instead.

Dang son, I have read some inept literature in my time but boy, you are just plain stupid. Did you get hit in the noggin with a rock during recess before you wrote that gobbeldygook?
How in the hell that is your bedroom did you come up with such a crack pot theory? HANG ON HANG ON. Don't tell me. I think I done went and figured it out on my own. Crack was the key word. You are one of the dope heads ain't ya boy?
Well lessee, your fee will is what let you go into that void that you call a conscience. Or did you not notice that?
Dang boy, you are annoying as all get out. Hey, get the hell off of my screen.

I am Jub Jub Pickens
lets go nigger knockin

My question was ducked. How am i fated towards crunchy tacos over big macs?

Maybe whatever higher power that may exist lies south of the border..LOL

Only if you consider free will a mystical, abstract idea. I'm not big on mystical, abstract ideas. I think free will exists- and there's a physical reason for it. I think God exists- and there's a physical reason for it. I think the afterlife exists- and there's a physical reason for it.

But that's just me.

sorry i didn't mean to duck your question. it's just that i answered that "question" several times on my other thread (by the way, that's in quotes because you didn't really ask anything). but to save people the boredom of repeating myself i didn't fully tackle it. first of all because i like to keep my post short(that way people might actually read them) and also because this relies on introspection and reasoning on anyone's part who wants to actually discuss the topic. otherwise i'll just get comments like "that doesn't make sense" or "i still think i have free will just because". but i think free will is ILLUSORY. the illusion is created in our conscious.

so we can be on the same ground i should define these terms.

free will is the ability to govern ones own actions, emotions, ideas or thoughts, regardless of surrounding situations.

surrounding situations refers to everything outside your body along with the numerous things inside your body that are out of your control. things like the endocrine system(hormones), neuron interactions, sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, and all the stuff that is not governed by conscious.

conscious is the state of awareness we have of our surroundings and of being in a state of existence.

now unfortunately i can't really explain this to well on a forum or with out refering to psychological jargon so i'll try and keep it simple.

i made the reference to the atoms to illustrate how things follow processes and are subject to rules. our existence is mostly made up of material, tangible things (at least we percieve it that way) all these things are governed by their definitions. whoever defined them is irrellevant. but everything that is material and tangible is defined and is subject to laws and rules. and they all come into being through structured processes that are also defined and governed. i could give examples but it should be obvious. in other words these things have no say in their outcomes, actions, or all around state of being.

i think it is rationale to say everything is like this. even non material things. these include concsious, emotions, ideas, thoughts, decisions, and anything else that comes alive in our perspective. this is something i thought about after reading something from nietzsche. he was talking about the famous saying "i think, therefore i am" and how descartes(the guy that said it) was full of shit. because he failed to define thought and where it came from. unfortunately nietzsche didn't delve into the topic, and left it at that. so i put my book down(ecce hommo), and thought about it. the question is WHERE DOES THOUGHT COME FROM? now this is a philosophical question but i think it is a psychological question as well. (if you are familiar with psychology you'll know that a good number of uncontrollabel things effect the state of our conscious).

anyways why is it, if you were hungry that you would choose to go get a big mac instead of a taco? where was that decision birthed and what brought it to full being? we can empiracally predict your decision if we had information about you. it's a field of psychology called behaviorism. although it is a pretty crappy field of psychology it is merited. it's pioneers were pavlov, watson, and B.F. Skinner. anyways it's proven that the environment and your surrounding have a big effect on your thoughts and actions. which is true. unfortunately they thought it was the only thing that effects thought which is ridiculous.

anyways, say you've had taco bell every fucking day for the past five weeks. you have no car and your fuckig hungry as fuck. your watching tv and you see a commercial that says five big macs for one dollar. you can get two tacos at taco bell for that much. the big macs on the T.V. are huge and tempting so you walk outside and set out on getting food. there is a McDonalds one block from your house and a Taco Bell ten blocks and it's 110 degrees outside. this is how external factors influence your thoughts and actions. we all know your gonna go get a big mac instead of some fucking tacos. and i think that is one part of the equation. outside stimuli interact with your internal being to form decisions, thoughts and actions.

next time you are hungry and going to get food in a similar situation, you might say "fuck i have free will, im gonna walk ten blocks in the heat and get some taco bell." but remember that decision was influenced by this very post, were i said you didn't have free will. again the process is complicated. looking at the outside factors that interact to form thought is the easy part. unfortunately your internal being is alot more complex.

the human nervous system is the most complex piece of matter known to man. and it's where thought, emotion, decisions, and conscious are created. this nervous system is the main thing external factors interact with to create thought. your nervous system is made of material things. so it is obvious they are structured and governed. the non-material things your body creates are what is in question. these are things like memory, perception, emotions and all that good stuff. i can write another stupid example but im sure your eyes are tired. i might in another post. so fuck the psychology and back to philosophy and my main argument.

how is it "you" would influence the birth of thought? you would have to propose there is an inside agent who is not affected by any of the material things that exist in our universe. this is illogical. if such a thing existed it would ruin the structure we live in. and even if this inside agent did exist, then what would define it? would it not in turn have rules and laws that make it what it is? how can it be anything if it has no definition? how can anything exist if it has no definition?

nothing in this structure exist that is not subject to the structures rules and laws. even in it's smallest most miniscule being, it is still part of the structure. even if we lack the knowlege of what it is, it is still subject to a definition. a way of being. this includes thought and will. they are governed. they come by through a process. we have nothing to do with that process. the reason i love this subject is because after this realization, it leaves a good number of things to ponder.

like what we really are and what is the purpose of the structure. and how amazing it is that the structure has created conscious and perception simply through the structured interaction of materials. it is something that seems very beautiful to me but very vain at the same time. unfortunately i can't delve into those topics with people that think we have free will. i think the notion of free will is just another fallacy of the human ego. anyways i want to keep typing but this is already very long. -blue