Greater realities that we create, concepts we interpret, illusions we invent. Meaningless words, meaning more actions. Yes, I'm a cockmouthed optimist.

What's pessimistic is believing free will does not exist?

It echos a loss of hope.

How so?

If free will doesn't exist we cannot evolve.

there was a process set in motion. we are in that process. evolvement is in that process. I's are creations of the ego, which are manifestations of the process.

I don't know if this has been covered or not. Why is it so important that we have free will? The illusion is just as well. We love to believe we choose. If I choose Taco Bell..maybe I didn't..maybe it was the complicated inner workings of my mind and outside influences that led me to taco bell..Why the hell does it matter? The illusion is more important. We don't have free will..it is predestined in some sick sort of way, but..the fact that you..do NOT know what will happen is what's important. Yes..if we all had the greatest computers ever and happened to be able to program every event from the beginning of history..we could tell you what tomorrow would bring..but..we don't..and so we won't. Yes there is a 85.4% chance of my using the restroom tomorrow..there is a such and such percent chance..but do I really know? No..hence..the not knowing creates the illusion of free will. Hume said one of the only things supporting free will was the intricacy and absurdity of the human mind. Now..we can break that all down into chemical reactions and such, but that's only the draw away from the question of Knowing. What do I know? What can I know? What will I know tomorrow? And the Answer to all three questions: Very little. Hence Free Will and Predetermination combine to form the perfect human ego.

What, then, is evolution?

What, philosophically? or, my use of the word? Probably very similar; a process of progressive change to a more aware entity.



Gad, I'm still trying to get my head around this one.

So you guys all believe everything is predestined? How can that be if the universe is chaotic and random?

I don't believe in predestination, either. Or a chaotic and random universe.

So you have no temporal insight? Is that why nothing is worth pursuing?

You're reading too much into what I'm saying. Context acting up, telling you what to think.

Weelll, you don't actually say that much.

Conclusion: Of course we have free will.

People went for a long time leading happy, fulfilling lives believing in predestination, or even not thinking about it at all.

I mean, you haven't really made your case for why we have Free Will, only said that, yeah, it's pretty obvious to you that we have it. And, to be fair, I haven't made my casem either. I should probably get on that.

you get on it and I'll agree or disagree.

Our will is neither free nor enslaved by fate. What is the source of our judgement and will?

We have natural and biological inclinations to do certain things and react certain ways. This isn't something we can control, only something we are born with and may strive to overcome, but usually don't.

We have education and upbringing, another thing we have no control over. Even the self-educated have no control over what information is out there to learn or the interpretations and styles of it presented by different authors and teachers. We have no control over what it is our parents tell us when we grow up.

We have sense experience, where through our own personal exploration and physical doing, we learn. But we have no control over what we learn through this since it is always tinted by peer influence, inculturation and natural inclination.

All the things that go inot our decision-making are beyond our control, or anyone's control really. That does not relieve from blame. Blame and punishment are normal reactions of the world to itself.

Okay so your equation is :
culture,education, instinct, physiology = predictable outcome(no free will)

My equation reads:
culture,education,instinct, physiology,factor X = unpredictable outcome (free will)

That second equation sounds like alchemy to me.

We choose what we want to do on what we know and have experienced, and we would always choose the same thing. In a sense this is predetermination, but this only means that our choices are predetermined, not that they do not exist. If our mind is the sum of our experiences then that is 'us' making the choice.

My equation is
culture + educations + instinct + physiology = will

Your ability to will is the same as what you will to happen.

my only problem with free-will is that it's there, but it isn't...........we justify reasons for against free-will, but the main problem i see is that despite whether you agree or disagree with free-will, you must always take into account what Hume (i think it was him) who said, and i paraphrase, when concerning free-will think of this example: you wake up to your alarm, now you can either a) go to work, or b) not go to work......pick one, right......however, if you pick one, then you can't justly pick the other, though you may think you can....whether you go to work, or you don't, you can only do one