But you can be too logical !
Humans aren't fucking machines , we think , feel , love and experience !

I agree with you on the sane part . . . I'm not !
Or else I wouldn't even bother replying to you , only an insane person would do that ! And argue with you over semantics

Semantics ar ehis specialty. Without them his will would be forsaken.

child: you have veen BADLY misinformed

You see, feeling, thinking, loving, experiencing are all logical/ they all follow the same basic Dynamics of Logic.

Logic is part of causality. All causal things are logical. That is why we can figure out what happened in the past.

Because we can use logic to trace back what happened.

Semantics are VERY very important.

if you cannot make yourself understood to another person bwecause you are using the wrong words, or you are using the words in the wrong context: the other person cannot understand you.

If you smile to a peson who is in a bad mood, and say to them:

'Hello! Nice day! Isn't it?'

What you are really trying to say to them is:

'Please don't be in a bad mood... cheer up!'

You are not using words honestly when you are not aware of the semantic meaning of the words you use. Even the slightest difference in inflection can change the meaning of a word. Using words is very important if you want to communicate with other people.

Do not sneer at semantics. You can learn a lot from semantics.

without semantics: you would be a babbling ape.

oops. spoke too soon.

The post to the prior one; besides the semantics idealism; is actualy pretty good.

Nice job

We are all babbling apes.

Do you feel that stinging in the back of your head?? That is pride fucking with you!! Don't let your pride fuck with you. We are all babbling apes.

Some of us just babble a bit better.

dear boy; do not try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs

alright, granny mc-creampants.

hey, just in case my old request got buried a bit, i'd like to hear you explain your choices. i mean, i'm not gonna make you, and this is the last time i'll mention it, i'm just curious.

you mean that garbage list of yours?

I'll give you a hint: delete all of abstraction from your existance: what is left?

if you want to call it a garbage list, that's fine. and yes, i did make it.

if abstraction were deleted from my existence i would either cease to exist or i would want not to exist. the physical universe would remain unchanged, but i would cease to be a human being and simply be more matter, without abstraction.

sigh.... you are mistaken. you do not know how mistaken you are.

Even if I spell it out for you: you will never accept the simple truth.

You have this notion that all which makes you different from any other animal is abstraction. You have this revulsion and scorn of other animals: that divorces you from allother living things on this earth.

If you lived without abstraction: you would not cease to exist as a human.

On the contrary: you would become MORE human than you are now.

Abstraction does not makes you human. Abstraction dehumanizes you. It turns you into an unfeeling machine.

Abstraction is a mental tool. It is a tool used by your tool-brain. It was developed by our ancestors using tools... until we began using our brains like tools.

Put it this way: if you had no tools: what is left of you? All that is left is your humanity... that is, if you had any to begin with. If you did not have any humanity to begin with: after all your tools are stripped from you: you would become a naked ape screaming in fear not knowing who you are.

If you had some humanity after all your tools were stripped from you: you would find that the only things you had left are: in other words: if you were positive insread of negative:

Honesty, Courage, Love, a sense of Fun, and a Sense of Pure Wonder.

Which could fill your entire life with happiness.

But if you are negative, if your negative self is stronger than your psitive attributes: then the only things you would be left with are:

Fear: hate: envy: jeaalousy: greed: cunning: deciet: weakness: lying: hypocrisy: etc, etc... whoch would turn your existence into a living hell.

since you have already been programmed by the negative culture you have been raised in, to become almost completely negative: the idea of having all of your abstraction stripped away from you is unthinjable got you.

What you call 'abstraction' is one of the most powerful mental tools you have that insulates you from the world and the universe and yourself. Take away this safety, this insulation... and you become a screaming naked baby. Why?

Sigh..... because when you were born. Your parents and your family never let you grow up in Nature. They kept you swaddled amd insulated and overprotected from all living things and all life. You grew up inside a cocoon of artificial safety. You never experienced the joy and the fun and the wonder of living outside in Nature without any restrictions. Living free, and happy, and healthy: without fear or heate or all the other things that were taught you inside the coccon of your artificial environment.

I have no hope for you. I do not expect you to understand anything I tell you. If you ever become healthy enough to learn how to have fun outdoors. if you ever do something like go camping outdoors long enough to get used to it, and overcome your revulsion for nature and the outer universe. Then you might begin to understand that human beings were never designed to live inside artificial shells called houses.

Civilized abstraction is only 10,000 years old. Your ancestors lived without it for millions of years. You discount millions of years of wisdom and truth because you have an unspoken assumption and belief that all civilization is better than Nature.

But... if ever compare the two different ways of living: you will be shocked.

But you never will. You will stay inside your abstract cocoon: unable to imagine life without it.

Put it this way: for you, all that exists for you, are abstract images on a 2-dimensional screen.

In case you do not know: outside of your 2-dimensional abstractions: there is a 3-dimensional Universe that is not abstract. And it is infinitely more interesting and more complex, and more worthy of exploring than any 2-dimensional abstraction.

You have a choice: either the fantasy of non-existent 2-dimensional abstraction: or the actual 3-dimensional Universe outside you, and inside you: that does actually exist and is not abstract.

I could go on. but what is the point?

turak, spelling out the simple truth is not enough to make me accept it. i need to understand why it's true, what makes it true.

i don't hate other animals for not having our powers of abstractions. i don't hate what is inferior to me; that would be a contradiction. i look for the positive in everything, and i know animals are capable of some abstraction. human beings are just another kind of animal. my abstraction does not divorce me from reality but makes reality richer for me. it takes the physical world and makes of it something more inside myself.

i disagree with this. i feel that abstraction is what makes life what it is. matter with abstraction is life. disorder with abstraction is order. abstraction takes what is evil and makes it good.

i think that emotions are abstractions, too. not only is thought an abstraction; love is too. so is hatred, so is greed, so is courage. abstraction is what gives meaning to an otherwise meaningless existence.
i would lose all thought and emotion, were i to lose my abstraction, and would be no better or worse than a stone. free will is an abstraction. free will makes being good different from being bad.

i would become a screaming naked baby without abstraction. i don't see how being in touch with nature would change any of that.

as i've said, abstraction makes me appreciate nature more. not for what it really is but for what i make of it.

i do think subjective abstraction is an improvement on objective nature since the former falls more in line with my theory on subjectivism. if we each interpret nature in our own way, and make our own personal abstractions regarding it, we'll be happier. i think truth is relative, since to be right or wrong is an abstraction anyway. in nature, nothing is wrong.

i am near certain that life without abstraction would not be worth living. i have considered it and this is my conclusion.

2-dimensional abstraction helps us understand and appreciate 3-dimensional reality. abstraction helps us like reality.

This discussion is pontless.

until you have lived without abstraction: you cannot say whether your life would be better or worse without it.

Since you will never live without it: you will never be able to compare two different ways of living.

The point is: you have never lived without it. I have.

You have never lived without indoor plumbing. I have. You have never lived without electricity. You have never lived without indoor heating. I have. You have never lived in a shack in the woods. I have. You have never lived on a farm. I have. You have never lived in a fishing village with no plumbing, and spent your day out on the ocean. I have. You have never lived in the woods and walked in the woods for years. I have. You have never spent your summers as a child in camps in the laurentians with no heating in your cabin. I have. You have never swum in crystal cold lakes in the morning. I have. You have never spent the afternoons sailing on lakes. I have. You have never lived without all the comforts of civilization. I have. You have never gone to the country every weekend. I have. You have never chopped your own firewood and sat by a fireplace in the evening and stared at the flames without thinking and enjoyed the peace and quiet of the evening. I have. You have never gone every weekend to the country... in the fall when the leaves are turning... You have never experienced a sauna in the country by an icy cold stream.

I have lived in both worlds: civilization and Nature.

I have compared living with and without abstraction. You have not.

you assume too much about me. i've spent hours staring at the flame of candle, watching it dance around, chaotic, but beautiful in its randomness; meaningless, but beautiful in its pointlessness; pure matter and energy and cold, heartless physics, but beautiful in its simplicity.

i've felt rain on me, in the cold, in the dark, with the wind blowing and the moon poking out from behind the clouds. i've felt the icy pinpricks and the sensation of it and warmth in my cheeks defying the wind. i've seen the world blanketed in darkness, where everything becomes one color and is all just as beautiful, just as glorious as it would be in the light.

this is how i look at the world. i see the physical, and understand the physical, but make it better through abstraction.

One moment of wonder. one momentary sensation.

Is not an entire life filled with wonder and beauty and Nature.

You think you understand the physical world because of this?

That is like peeking through a keyhole once: from a prison cell that you have lived in all of your life: and imagining that from this one tiny glimpse... you suddenly... instantly... understand the entire world, all of nature. all the universe... everything! You are GOD! You know EVERYTHING! You are...what? Peeking through what? Staring at a candle?????

And you think that this experience of yours is not only as good as going to the country every weekend, building a fire in the fireplace, going outside and cross-country skiing in the bright sunlight until you are so hot that you have to take off your jacket, and you are steaming with heat... breathing in the fresh clean crisp air... with the beauty of the snow-covered forest all around you, and stretching your legs and arms with every sliding swing of your entire body... traveling over the soft snow, over hills, up hills, sliding doewn them, falling into the snow laughing, brushing off the snow, and exploring the valley and the ice cold stream, and going in the winter where you could never go in the summer because all the brush was too thick to penetrate. Coming back after hours of exercise that tones and uses every muscle in your body... to a cozy cabin with a fire going... to make a feast cooking a goose with all the trimmings, amongst friends all happy and healthy and smiling and in good humor... sitting by the fireside, staring at the flames while the cuckoo clock ticks on the wall while the crackling fire sputters and hisses... feeling the satisfaction of resting after a well-earned day of fun and beauty outdoors in the woods... not thinking about anything... just feeling good, feeling alive....

I wish everybody could have been as lucky as I have been. I wish every person had the experiences i had. I am the luckiest person ever born. I hate the fact that other people are not as lucky as I was. I hate the fact that I cannot explain to you how fantastic my life has been. I hate the fact that other people have not been as lucky as i was to find out that living in Nature is better, and more fun, and healthier than living in cities.

I would like to take every young person out of the city: and have them live in the country for months on end. I would love to introduce them to actually living without all the comforts of city life. But I am not rich enough to fund my own camp for children.

You will never understand until you have lived like me: in both worlds. And I hate that also. You cannot understand other people unless you live with them. You cannot understand another culture unless you live in that culture for years. I hate the internet. I hate abstraction. Every person I can get to leave their computers and go out and live: is a victory for me.