Proof negates faith, they're mutually exclusive.

What do you think happened when the people of OZ found out that the wizard was just a man and all the "magical healing" he had done was just trickery?
They would have fallen back on the ailments he had healed, all the laws he had passed would have become suspect, all his ideas would have been refuted because the people no longer had faith in him, they had proof he was just a man.
They had proof that his magic wasn't real and even though it had worked for years it was all built on faith.

The belief in the existence of something you can't prove is called faith.

having catholicism forced upon me my entire life, the thought of an external entity seems normal to me, i just made reasonings out of what i did read and understand...i believe in what makes sense to me, it doesn't matter what other people think about it.

i believe there is a larger, more powerful energy out there, i can feel the awe and see the amazement of it everytime i look out the window

*Taps the glass*

ahhh, so you are a majestic mountain?

If you shake the universe the stars drift like snow for a few momentary billenia but it soon gets boring so is put in a drawer and forgotten till the next junk sale. *taps the glass*

How does the concept of an external entity "make sense"?

i don't understand how people can believe that all life on earth started with a bunch of stars going bang...i can see evolution up to the point of pre ice age mank...and then suddenly we have modern man looking, acting and being different than the neanderthals...

but i don't exactly buy into the concept of a "god" as stated in the bible or even some ancient texts...but i don't think man is the greatest and only conscience intelligence in this world...and i don't think we came from monkeys either...how does or can anyone reason belief, belief is personal and subjective...

certainly the current theories of evolution and natural selection arent perfected but i got shocked when i read "...and i don't think we came from monkeys either..."!

thats really a given, apes were our ancestors. you cant reject theoverwhelming evidence science has presented about evolution and apes being our ancestors

you should read about this some time

out of curiosity, why exactly dont you believe apes werent our ancestors?

following up to this, who or what do you think created this "larger, more powerful energy out there"? and who or what created THAT entity? also, do you think this more powerful energy has conscious thought?

I take it your looking for a headache?

The Source (God) is what ever created this Universe, be it matter, energy, or Sentient thought.... Have you ever thought about what caused the Big Bang?
Whatever happened there are wholes in each view because science, religion, philospophy... its all guessing.

As to the Actual topic. I dont have faith, but I know there has to be a Source, because logic dictates it. Energy does not exist independantly, nor does it just spontaneously appear or merge, except in the far probablities, it had to have come from some where.

Actualy the 'hole' in science's view is whether you understand the research and findings and feel comfortable adding them to your understanding of the universe..the big bang is proven to most scientists due to red shift and the fact that the 'echo' of the big bang can still be measured etc etc.(the etc being the measurable ages of stars and the age of the most distant universes we can see..the list goes on..oh and there is nothing 'sudden' about the emergence of modern day man from austrolopithicus (sp?) and other early homonids)

Jordyn has already made it quite clear that she wishes to stay very firmly in the ideas she is comfortable with, very well but in such a situation as this I agree with Doom that she should at least try to justify her views.

When you say "created" do you mean ex nihilo, out of nothing, or did the Source use previously existing materials?
If ex nihilo, how do you reconcile that with this statement:

"...nor does [energy] just spontaneously appear or merge, except in the far probablities, it had to have come from some where."

What proof do have of this?

What is the cause of the Source?

sure, there are a lot of theories about the discoveries made, but no one has yet proven to a point of no opposition that it's fact...and i have!

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out of curiosity, why exactly dont you believe apes werent our ancestors?

what do we have in common with them other than being bi pedal? I've seen no proof to believe differently, and i have so many questions about where humanity came from, that science has yet to answer...

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following up to this, who or what do you think created this "larger, more powerful energy out there"? and who or what created THAT entity? also, do you think this more powerful energy has conscious thought?

i have yet to figure out where man came from...i wouldn't want to know what created the universe, that's a mystery that's not meant to be known, and i have no desire to do so.

however energy is a very real part of this world, our brains are a conscience energy...the power of a storm is unconscious energy...but are they really that different of energies? What gives our energy thought, and denies that to a weather condition, why assume that we are the only energy that can contain a conscience?

i have justified many views on this board...what you're discussing has been discussed months ago, years, even before i was here...so excuse me if i'm not exacting and clear enough of my thoughts to be so...antiseptic with my beliefs, i'll try presenting them in a clinical way that you can understand...i hope you do understand after a point people began to develop their own theories based on experience, observation and just living life, rather than text book confirmation that's outdated yearly...but i have read all the information on what i've developed a desire to know about...

back on topic, there is no proof for or against god...faith does not require proof, and i don't remember it ever expecting any...but to try and dismiss those who do have faith and believe using scientific theory...there's no way to prove that scientific fact or lack there of for anyhing requiring an individuals mind...so is there a point to this thread other than encouraging an i'm right, your wrong mentality?

If you want a discussion on faith, there's plenty of it in religion

The proof is twofold. One is the hominid lineage in the fossil record that links us to ancestral apes, apes whom modern apes are also decendent from, leading to the conclusion tha humans and modern apes share these ancestral apes as a common ancestor. Two, the amazing genetic similarity between humans and modern apes that reaffirms this conclusion. Here's a chart that outlines man and modern apes common descent:

Hominid Family Tree

That's correct. However, lack of proof is a fully justifiable reason to be without belief in something. That's the root of atheism.

I highlighted with what i agreed with...but is it proven to be an absolute truth?

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That's correct. However, lack of proof is a fully justifiable reason to be without belief in something. That's the root of atheism.

have i stated that it is wrong to have a lack of belief, or simply demonstrate my personal beliefs and why i have them...i see nothing wrong with atheism, however i find most to be no different than those they are arguing against when it comes to their personal beliefs about the subject(belief doesn't have to be specific to religion based concepts.)

I'll answer this on the "Evolution" thread, just to keep things tidy.

I thought the point you were trying to make was that since there is neither proof for or against god, to believe in god is equally justified as to be without such belief. Lack of proof for is indeed justification for being without belief in something. However, lack of proof against is not justification for believe in something, since positive belief has the burden of proof.

Is experience considered proof?...no, it can't be scientifically measured or scrutinized. Faith is experienced it can't be measured. You either have faith or do not, you can't have a little faith just as you can't be a little pregnant. Therefore, to have faith in God you would have to experience God.