Commonly cited as reason for denying God's existence.

Basic logic goes thus...

1. God's benevolence means that God will not do evil or allow evil to be done. (Note that it is not that God cannot do evil for that would restrict God's power. God can do evil but will not do it because God is good.)

And

2. God's omnipotence means that God has the power to ensure that no evil will be done.

Therefore

3. If God exists there will be no evil in the world. (Because, by premises (1) and (2), God has both the will and the power to prevent all evil.)

But

4. There is evil in the world.

Therefore

5. God does not exist

This arguement is known as modus tollens -- if p then q, not-q therefore not p.

Any thoughts or opinions, do you think this can prove there is no God?

Been here before.It assumes that God is a control freak that would never allow free will.

awe yes, the ever lasting theory against god......ironic that this thread was posted since last night, during one of my attempts to teach philosophy to my roomates while drunk, we had a discussion pertaining to evil/existence/non-existence after watching the new Star Wars (i was attempting to prove that Darth Vader is far superior to Luke Skywalker and is not solely evil)........anyway, i came to the conclusion that existence is good, for it exists; and there is no such thing as non-existence, for if you simply tried to label non-existence as everything that doesn't exist, then that means non-existence IS everything that doesn't exist; therefore, assuming the idea of opposties (such as good and evil) i came to the conclusion that good will ultimately prevail with existence, and since everything that exists is good, even though we might consider certain things as evil, it ultimately is good for it exists......therefore, is there evil at all?

by the way, sephiroth, i suggest you read the logical fallacies thread above (pay close attention to the False Dillema section) and then reread your post... k?

everyone has a diffrent defintion of what is evil so how can it be said that god can do no evil? in whose eye's is he doing no evil? In my eyes and as i understand it he is a fully evil being (and selfish!) So i stand by what i have beilved in for years now there is no God or Devil they are just what r used to represent the two sides of every human being.

i agree!

It pains me to have to defend Christianity like this, but I've not found anywhere in the bible where it says God will not allow evil to exist. The whole premise is based around free will, as RedMeat pointed out. God dislikes evil, but as part of the whole "test" in life allows evil to go on so that people may be held accountable for their actions. All of the things defined as evil seem to be actions by man, evil has never struck me as being some sort of tangible entity of it's own, just a definition of certain actions.

As for proving God's existence, that's impossible to do no matter which way you argue it. I could not produce any tangible evidence of his existence anymore than I could prove that he does not exist. I personally do not believe a god of any kind exists. But I wouldn't be able to sway a christian over to that viewpoint using hard undeniable proof any more than they could sway me to theirs. Simply put, that undeniable proof does not exist. None of us will ever know for sure until we die. And the ironic part? If there is no heaven and god, and we just slip into nonexistence, then we'll never know the answer to this age old question even if we do die.

Read it, so whats your point?

congradulations, you've just hit upon the dillema created by Socrates' (or was it Plato's?) perfect forms... how can man comprehend perfection when he is an imperfect being?

your reasoning for the above post is flawed... your "if p then q" assumes a definite connection between the two...

you explain to me how we're imperfect.....imperfections are perfect within themselves......

I personally view good and evil as opposites working in different directions. When a good or evil act is commited, it gives reason for the opposite to be done. It's like you could not destroy something if there was nothing build in the first place. Or if there's no space where to build something you can't do that. It is the interaction of these opposites that sets the world in motion and gives it change. If there wouldn't be a 'conflict', the world would stagnate and not change. That's why I can't think of good or evil existing without the other half.

And then there is a problem of each person having a different definition of good and evil. Everybody views it a bit (or not a bit) different. Different cultures often have different definitions for it too (look at how different a suicide was looked at by Christian Europe and by Japanese in Middle Ages for example).

I also wouldn't consider God or Satan as examples of 'pure good' or 'pure evil'. Both are capable of doing one and the other (that is if they would exist, in what I don't really believe ).

wow... THAT seemed like a contradiction in terms... perhaps you could elaborate?

first off, let me state that i believe that existence is good, and therfore everything that does exist is good.....if what we assume as evil was the imperfection of good, it would simply be the perfection of what it tries to achieve, that being the imperfection of good, but because i believe everything that exist is good, and if i could say good and perfection are closely related, and since evil is not solely imperfect, it is still simply perfect......i think

Another great circle arguement.
But I get what you mean. To say that a human is imperfect is wrong, yet right. Say that you attempt a test with one question(such as what is your name?), which has an answer which is 100% right/wrong(perfectly right/wrong), and where you can only succeed or fail. You fail the test, that is you do not get a perfect score. You did not necessarily perform imperfectly for you failed with perfection, therefore you still performed perfectly. A human being is perfect at being a human being, regardless of the flaws that another attributes to it.

Though there is a line of thinking that suggests that if we can conceive(that is form an idea) that something is imperfect then it is, for perfection cannot breed imperfection, not even the concept.

yes.....that same goes for non-existence vs' non-existence.......to say something does not exist, that is it is the opposite of existence, then it exists as thus.....

if not then not... heheh...

Are you basing the definition of God as 'Good'? and the Devil, 'Evil'? Isn't that concept a bit archaic?

no.......take it how you want, there seems to exist two motions: good and evil, so please yourself with archaic definitions of such notions with titles of GOD and DEVIL

no, im leaning more towards Order and Chaos... neither is good nor evil... from a certain point of view.